116 comments

1. Real Media Apr 5

   That’s bullshit, there wasn’t forty students arrested and the police did not use extensive force and were certainly not abusive, they did what they had to do. For one, it was never stated in any article I’ve read that the fire was about 15 feet in diameter and blazed 10 feet in the air. It was ignited between the knoll and the old bus loop covered in graffiti and it was possible to see the flames from Mahoney and Sons! For one, that’s illegal and dangerous and could have endangered buildings and lives and two, if you obstruct firemen from putting out a dangerous fire, you’re an idiot. Why would you do that to your campus? Why would you set a ghastly fire in the sidewalk and endanger students? Sure they call it a peaceful protest, but what’s peaceful about that? The kid who stood infront of the firehose deserves to be arrested, and perhaps see a shrink. For the protestors, not allowing the cops to drive away their vehicle to give acceptable punishment towards someone who indulged in criminal acts is an offense, and you can and will (as we saw) get arrested. Sitting on the knoll in protest is different that obstructing justice and what the police did was completely acceptable. They’re not going to make your arrest comfortable and graceful, who should they? Sure there’s a point but when fifteen cops are entering a situation when they could be harmed by dozens of students, shouldn’t they be concerned for their safety? They are humans too and perhaps they were scared, who knows if someone in the crowd of students was heavily intoxicated and was carrying a weapon, why should they put their lives in danger when it wasn’t them in the first place that started the confrontation? Let them take the guy to jail, let the legal system handle it, it’s bigger and more effective than any group of students ever will be. Protest things that deserve to be protested. Maybe protest things that people care about, this campus is one of the greenest in the country, this dirt mound isn’t worth students losing their student visa’s over because they got arrested for someone they never knew in the first place. Get real, there are more important things in this world than someone going downtown and being questioned, get angry for the right reasons. Be smart, walk when the cops pick you up and don’t make them drag you because everyone knows they told you what was going to happen. I was there, they announced to everyone what was going to go down and no one moved. Then they approached everyone one by one and said ‘You can get up and walk away if you like, no? You won’t? Ok, we’re going to have to drag you away, you had your chance.” The police are there to help, for all the people onlooking and yelling “Shame!” who are you going to be calling when a burglar enters your house or injures a loved one, they are there for you. Realize that.

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2. Fokked Apr 5

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIzPNHbXTuE

   I would hardly call that a peaceful protest.

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3. Trevor Apr 5

   I suspect that they knew what they were doing was illegal. They knew the battle against the underground bus loop development was lost years ago. They relished the opportunity to fight “the man” to feel like they were doing something. They’re just neo-hippies, clinging to an outdated ideology that self-destructed before they were twinkles in their fathers’ eyes. In the process, they’re turning people away from student activism and supporting the idea that UBC is a heartless money machine that can’t be stopped.

   Trek Park is an eyesore. Patchouli smells awful. Brad Nowell was a horrible songwriter. Neo-hippies fail.

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4. Fokked Apr 5

   From the British Columbia RCMP Media Relations Website

   “Volatile situation at UBC results in the arrest of 19 individuals

   Vancouver, BC: On April 4, 2008 at approximately 08:00 pm, UBC Campus Security requested the assistance of the University Detachment RCMP and the Vancouver Fire Department in dealing with a group of about 100 individuals and a large bonfire near the Student Union Building.

   Upon their arrival, firefighters deemed the fire unsafe and asked for police assistance to move the protesters so they could put it out. Despite several police verbal commands to move, the individuals banded together against police and prevented fire crews from putting out the blazing fire.

   Several individuals became combative and resisted arrest prompting the 3 University Detachment Members on scene to call for back up from Richmond RCMP and the Vancouver Police Department. One individual was arrested, handcuffed and placed in police vehicle at this time.

   The group then placed themselves around the police vehicle locking arms and preventing police from transporting the prisoner to cells, despite many warnings they would be arrested for obstructing a police officer.

   At that time, the 3 RCMP Members called for back up resources from Richmond RCMP and VPD because protestors continued to refuse commands to disperse.

   Nineteen individuals were eventually safely arrested and are currently in custody. They are facing a veriety of charges inlcuding assaulting a police officer, resisting arrest, obstruction of police officer. The fire was eventually extinguished by firefighters. This dangerous situation was brought under control through the co-ordinated actions of University RCMP with the mutual aid provided by police officers from Vancouver and Richmond.

   This matter remains under investigation. Media inquiries can be directed to Cst Annie Linteau, Strategic Communication Section, (604)264-2929.

   Annie Linteau, Cst.
   Strategic Communications
   5255 Heather Street
   Vancouver, B.C. V5Z IK6

   Phone: (604) 264-2929
   Fax: (604) 264-3200
   Email: media.webmaster@rcmp-grc.gc.ca”

   Sounds reasonable to me.

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5. Steven Klein Apr 5

   First off: Stef was never in a police cruiser. We got her released while the police were trying to arrest her. Second: The fire was out long before the several detachments arrived and the entire situation was under control. Third: The police DID NOT issue several warnings. In fact, they asked ME to warn people before issuing a single warning. The extent to which the police are distorting what happened shows that they are afraid and embarrassed by the fallout of their actions.

   “Upon their arrival, firefighters deemed the fire unsafe and asked for police assistance to move the protesters so they could put it out. Despite several police verbal commands to move, the individuals banded together against police and prevented fire crews from putting out the blazing fire.

   Several individuals became combative and resisted arrest prompting the 3 University Detachment Members on scene to call for back up from Richmond RCMP and the Vancouver Police Department. One individual was arrested, handcuffed and placed in police vehicle at this time.”

   None of the people who surrounded the car resisted arrest. The RCMP is intentionally confusing the time line to make it seem like they did. They also don’t mention the several people who were arrested while just watching. There was nobody who was being arrested or combative when the RCMP called for backup. That is a blatant lie.

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6. Jack Apr 5

   this was far from a peaceful protest. If you were protesting the knoll, you did it at the wrong time. 8 PM on a friday night is far from the ideal time to get student attention on campus. Also, there should not be a need to force a confronation with the police- you brought it upon yourselves.

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7. Real Media Apr 5

   Jack is right, a friday night showing of protest looks more like a friday night smoking protest (pun intended). You guys need to get it together and realize that maybe the 80% of students that didn’t sign your petition – aka the majority – might like some development and improvement on the bus loop. What you’ve done at Trek park or whatever it is called is revolting, the graffiti, the garbage, the filth, not winning over a lot of people in my books, and I’m with the majority of students – aka the masses that don’t join in on your protests. And if you watch the youtube video, what you did to try and save the fire was scream, “Save the fire save the knoll, save the fire save the knoll!” Come on, them putting out the fire is not the personification of a metaphor for “The Man” extinguishing your hopes and dreams of sitting on a grass hill between classes, care about something that matters, too much time and energy is being wasted at what’s called a dead-end, or jail…your pick.

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8. Bahram Norouzi Apr 5

   Knoll Aid did not begin at 8pm. It began at around noon. And it was not a “protest” in the sense of people actually shouting and chanting. It was a live music event in the spirit of protesting the construction of the underground busloop and collecting signatures to ask the BoG not to approve the construction (and for the information of those of you who think the underground busloop has been a done deal for several year I should say that the project does not even have the approval of the BoG).
   The fire was not planned. It surely was a huge fire, but also it was made in a location that was clear from anything that could catch fire by at least a few meters. I am not going to defend standing in front of the firehose; it simply was a bad idea. But the protest that resulted in the arrest of 25 people was not in defense of standing in front of the firehose, but against the utter brutality of the police to arrest the first two people (only one of them standing in front of the firehose). The police pinned Stef Ratjen to the ground for 5 minutes while her face was covered in foam. The other person was also forcefully pinned on the ground and handcuffed while he was not even resisting arrest.
   In the video clip on this website one or two students are shouting insulting words at the police. And that is as “violent” as students got last night. All the time that students were sitting around the police car, they remained peaceful, never touched the car, and never insulted the police. The police however threatened students that they would unleash dogs on them and pointed their tazer guns at the crowd. The images of the police dragging students away from the car are also indicative of the police brutality (in the CBC clip notice that none of the protesters actually resist their own arrest; also in that clip there is the scene of a poor cyclist who was only walking by, and was not part of the protest, who got arrested by the police).
   One last thing: Trek Park is not about not developing the site. I don’t think there are many people even among the people who helped with building Trek Park, who would think of Trek Park as an ideal of how things should be looking at the center of the campus. What the Trek Park is suppose to protest against is the problems associated with the underground busloop: not only it does not increase ridership, but also it was designed before U-Pass; it does not serve the South Campus area appropriately; it costs UBC some $40 million while there is a faculty hiring freeze due to the budget deficit; and it has not taken the Skytrain line that is planned for 2020 into account (just to mention a few). There are many far more effective ways of dealing with buses at UBC (for example having buses going around the campus instead of to a central busloop). The underground busloop is a reminiscent of a development plan that was envisioned 7 years ago, but since then everything about the plan except for the busloop has changed.

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9. Pete Apr 5

   The protest itself was hardly “peaceful dancing and music.” I was there, and the protesters could generously be described as belligerent. In fact, I went up to one and asked what was happening, and he gleefully replied (about the guy in the squad car), “He’s taking one for the team!” with a cocky grin on his face.

   The “bonfire” they had going wasn’t really a bonfire. A bonfire is what you would see when people go camping. They had what I would call a “ridiculous fire” going. A fire big enough for Fire & Rescue to have to be called down. And when the Fireman attempted to try and put out the fire, some idiots screamed at him while yelling “for shame!” (Is that really the way you want to treat people who risk their lives to ensure the safety of ours?)

   Then, some nut attempts to try and jump in front of the hose to “protect” the ridiculous fire she had started. She gets wet, and then that’s the fire department’s fault? I should feel sorry for her? We should feel sorry for her? I’m shocked she was released.

   As for the lies about police brutality, there was nothing of the sort. I was standing there watching as the protesters had surrounded the police car. Their “singing” and “dancing” was just them screaming belligerently, like drunk fans at a Detroit Pistons game. Then, police had to remove them after telling them to “back off” 50 times (gee, who would have thought that obstruction of justice would lead to arrests?).

   Like the little children they were, the protesters refused to get up, so when they were arrested, they had to be gently dragged.

   If that’s “police brutality”, then you rich, priviledged white kids need a serious reality check. One that both your parents and education obviously failed to give you.

   Grow up. You embarrass the actual UBC students who want to learn.

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10. Real Media Apr 5

    Yes!!! Thank you Pete, takin one for the team

    You’ve got your head on straight and that’s good to hear, what Bahram said to the news stations was complete bullshit and I’m glad there were other witnesses who can account for the truth.

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11. Nick Apr 5

    Thank-you Pete for your comment. I agree with everything that you said.

    I am disgusted at the actions of the students involved with this protest. Stephanie, we did not elect you as VP External to lead a mob of unruly hooligans in resisting the police.

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12. Kyle Apr 5

    Bahram Norouzi,

    You are a liar. You lied that police was brutal. They did not get angry at all. And the “kid who was just passing by with his bike” was over the top. First, you have to be really skillful to be able to pass through a protesting crowd while on your bike (as seen on the CBC footage) and second, when you see 10 police cars around and at least 20 policemen, RCMPs and Campus security around, you might not want to pass through the scene, by “just driving your bike”.

    I personally am ashamed that the protesters were UBC students. You guys acted like some crackheads, not as academically integrated people. I aslo expect the people who represent the Knoll Aid and other similar organizations to be responsible for the actions of the groups they organize and at least apologize to all UBC students for the inconvenience of being associated as a part of the same institution as you do. I also demand that you stop declaring that you represent student opinion. You never asked the students what they think about their protests, whether they agree on your agenda and authorize you to represent them in the protests. Please note that by doing petitioning and making people sign for what you stand for, you ONLY CAPTURE THOSE WHO AGREE WITH YOU. Making referenda, formal meetings with other organized student groups and press conferences are steps that show some concern on student opinion.

    To sum up, if you want to be a trustful organization who argues for its causes, make sure you make a press conference, public statements that condemn those for whose actions you cannot and do not want to take responsibility for.

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13. J Apr 5

    I don’t really get these Trek Park people. They gathered signatures for a petition at the beginning of the year. I myself signed. But if the university doesn’t want to listen, what more can they do? Vandalizing the old administration building (even though there’s no proof it was them, everyone knows it was), lighting an outrageous fire on campus grounds, and then refusing access to fire fighters who are simply doing their job to ensure that safety of both property and people is maintained, just goes to show everyone that these people need lessons in actual activism.

    The power doesn’t listen when you use violence or vandalism, nor does it listen when you do things blatantly idiotic like what happened last night. You sorry kids who don’t understand the true spirit of protest have not only given the students at UBC a bad rep., but you’ve also driven them away from your cause. Nobody likes hoodlums on our campus, so don’t pretend that your actions actually represent the interests of the students. You’re just mad that the university didn’t listen, and now you’re looking to get even.

    You lost the battle. It’s sad, and I feel it’s unfortunate that development will go ahead, but GET OVER IT. Confrontations with the police over something as pithy as this has done nothing but conflate the situation further.

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14. Kyle Apr 5

    I was there as well. The facts Pete refers to are real. I also think that Stephanie Ratjen, by acting responsibly as she promised in her elections platform, must resign and apologize for her actions to the public. Otherwise, she proves that she isn’t trustful and responsible for her actions. Unfortunately for her, a position of VP External is one of devotion and responsibility.

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15. Kyle Apr 5

    “It surely was a huge fire, but also it was made in a location that was clear from anything that could catch fire by at least a few meters.”

    And what if I, due to “the obsessive police brutality”, lost my sobriety and peace of mind, just fell into the fire and died. Would you take responsibility for my death? Would Ms. Ratjen do? Would you spend the next ten years of your life being raped every day in some jail? I am sure you wouldn’t.

    That’s why when you organize an event and things go bad, you have to take responsibility on time and prevent from escalations happening. If you intended to organize a peaceful protest, you should have never left the fire to be set. You guys who organized this had to be the people to stop the fire and tell your stupid protesters to go back home and drink their milk. Instead, you chose an easier path, the one of the victims, but it still doesn’t alleviate your guilt on the civil disorder that happened.

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16. Kyle Apr 5

    Naaah, you guys should stop daydreaming. I heard the policemen warning you. You can also go to the youtube video and see that one of the policeman shouted “back off” at least 10 times before the guy with the bike (who was just “passing by”) got arrested.

    “None of the people who surrounded the car resisted arrest.”

    When you resist walking you are preventing you are preventing the policeman to lawfully arrest you. Neither the protesters were helpless victims (”fuck the pigs” and the guy in the youtube video who tries to attack an officer arresting Ms. Ratjen)nor the police were brutal by simply dragging people who refuse to walk.

    In addition, can you just tell me what the police try to achieve by “distorting the truth”. Do you imply they are evil or have a secret conspiracy going on? That’s way to much weed smoked today man…

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17. Brock Apr 5

    I second that. I feel a petition should be made to get Staphanie Ratjen removed from the AMS

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18. Brock Apr 5

    Correction Kyle, Soy Milk. The very situation Kyle speaks of happened at UC Berkeley in 1969. A student protest over free space escalated out of hand and one student (not a protestor) who was observing the protest was killed.

    I love how you protestors think everyone else is uneducated. Look into what your doing and weigh out the consequences.

    And for gods sakes, lets get Stephanie Ratjen off the AMS and out of making decisions for the students of UBC.

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19. Adam Apr 6

    I am with Kyle. I have talked with the Trek Park people on many occasions, and their demands/expectations are not only shoddy they are borderline nonsensical. Their petitions and “press releases” are both idiotic and riddled with grammatical errors. I mean come on, is this the best thing you guys have to do? If the most oppressing thing in your lives is having a hill temporary razed then rebuilt consider yourself blessed. Furthermore, someone in the video shouted “corporate bullshit” at the fireman. Are you people retarded? Do you even know what a fire department is?

    On a campus with upwards of 30 000 people your protests seem to range between a max of 100 people, and a minimum of those who organized them plus or minus 5. Everyone on campus knows they are happening, but 29 900 students just think you people are idiots and can’t wait for the bus loop so that they no longer have to stand in the rain.

    Tearing down the knoll to build the bus loop? Hand me a shovel man.

    ~Adam

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20. Adam Apr 6

    Could not agree with you more Pete. I mean I personally was not there, what with being at my part-time job which I work to pay for our entirely reasonable tuition. But from what I hear, these overwhelmingly privileged, white students REEEEALLY stuck it to the man. You people are losers, quit trying to copy the 60’s, be a little original. And if you won’t, at least choose a cause that won’t result in people laughing at you.

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21. Kyle Warwick Apr 6

    To the other Kyle-

    Regardless of your feelings about the cause the Trek Park people are fighting for, I think it is counterproductive to say the protestors were acting like crack-heads. I might be overly optimistic, but I know students on both sides of this debate (SDS vs. moderate students), and they both legitimately want what’s best for the university. This means that despite the wide ideological and cultural gulf between the Trek Park students and others, a constructive dialogue should still be possible. Ad hominem attacks, however, make dialogue a great deal more difficult.

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22. Eden Hart Apr 6

    Stef and Tristan:

    Resign.

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23. PEdro Apr 6

    Come on people! Look beyond the little video of the event that there is.. Why is this event there all the time? Why are people screaming corporate bullshit at firemen? You think 29 900 people dont want it.. how about 29 900 people don’t care about it or anything relating the uni anyway. 6% voted for our AMS presidents. at one point 4000 students (~10%) of our 45000 student population.

    Most people want to study and get out and thus don’t care enough, but don’t bash the only people who actually care. You would think university students are smart. We look at a bonfire and resistance to arrest and we think: stupid hippies. Think about the reasons for such passion.

    1. Lack of due democratic processes in our University.
    2. False sustainable premise – unsustainable, non expandable bus loop that will be demolished in 15 years for a sky train to be included.
    3. Big business vs students, who’s university is it anyway? Tuum Est.? I think not.

    It is incredible how much misunderstanding of both the Trek Park movement and the background to it still exists.

    It is another symptom of the larger problems of mass misinformation, voter-apathy, student disengagement, and the self-centered mentality that divides UBC students into petty near-sighted disciplinary factions.

    Students seem to have forgotten already that both the GSS and the AMS councils unanimously REJECTED the underground bus loop!

    They seem to forget who was there in the side of the students circulating the petition to call on the University to hold meaningful consultations with students, and who fought for making so that the above ground area of the underground bus bunker would be designed for students and without the mall and luxury housing!

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24. Andrea Apr 6

    I’m absolutely bewildered by the actions of these students. Shame on THEM! What a trivial issue! They make a mockery about of real activism. There are SO many more important issues in this world to protest, and to possibly get arrested for in the process. I would have been proud to have been part of the APEC protests 10 years on campus. However, this? These people made complete fools of themselves. And I can’t believe that these people called that police brutality! NO one was hurt!! These people obviously have no idea how protesters are dealt with in less democratic countries. What a joke this is. I’ve seen the tapes, and I say good on the RCMP and fire department for handling this so professionally.

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25. Steven Klein Apr 6

    I unfortunately yet to see tapes of incidents I’m most concerned with. Let’s get things straight: the fire was a stupid idea, one or two individuals yelling “fuck the pigs” was a stupid idea, and stepping in front of the fire house was a stupid idea. Should the police therefore have made those arrests? Should they have forced Stef’s face into the water from the firehouse? Should Campus Security have helped the police in making the arrests (which they denied to me afterwards, despite many people having seen them)? Absolutely not. The fire was out within minutes and the situation was well under control, except for our two arrested friends.

    That is why we locked arms with Stef and prevented the officer from taking her away. And guess what? The police officer decided to let her go! He took off her handcuffs and released her. So, students did the same thing with the individual in the car. It was then TWO HOURS before the other arrests were made. In the meantime, we chatted with RCMP officers and tried to figure out how we could resolve the situation without more arrests. They repeatedly told us to wait for UBC’s commanding officer and that he would be able to talk us. While the car was surrounded, police officers were still able to access the car and go in and out. Then, some of the new officers who arrived were looking for a fight and the original officers had exaggerated the first situation to justify the excessive police presence. The protesters, who knew they were going to be arrested, were. That it had to come to that is in itself terrible. THEN the police started overreacting to the crowd and arrested several people who were observing the arrests. Three examples are the individual in the longer youtube video who was arrested as he was turning away from a police officer, the individual who was riding his bike, and Bahram Norouzi, who was detained after he gave an interview to CBC, despite being at the same distance as everyone else.

    I had no problem yelling “shame!” and “stop!” at the police when I feel strongly that they were acting shamefully and should have stopped. I wasn’t trying to “intimidate” the police (what a ridiculous idea) and letting your opinion be heard in that sort of heated environment is a good thing. The police’s official statement distorts the timing of the events by making it seem that the backup arrived to deal with the “dangerous” fire, lies when it says only one person was initially arrested, and lies when it says multiple verbal warnings were issued. The point is that the POLICE could have prevented it from getting to this point by doing the same thing with the fellow in the car that they did with Stef, or at least communicating with us about it, and while making the arrests they overreacted and used excessive force, especially with individuals who just in the crowd. I am really embarrassed by student’s willingness to viciously jump on the protesters and celebrate the police’s reaction. Really, really frustrating…

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26. Youtube Apr 6

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIjXZ2cAoFw&feature=related

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27. Adam Apr 6

    Pedro,

    It’s not that people “misunderstand” Trek Park, we are beat over the head with it at every corner, and are long since aware of all the vast social injustices involved with building a place to take the bus without standing in the rain. Don’t mistake people’s satisfaction with UBC as apathy. We attend a school with relatively bargain-basement tuition compared with the rest of North America, a high quality of education, and an democratic system of governance. The reason nobody attends your events is because people genuinely either disagree with you, or are in complete awe that this is what you are spending your energy on. Not you don’t make some very valid points. I mean, if they tear down Trek “Park”, where will we put all posters for Use Beds for Sale and 2003’s Halloween Pub Crawl. Fight the man guys!

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28. Pete Apr 6

    When the police detained your pyrogenic friend, they were considerate enough to release her after she had attempted to prevent the fire department from stopping the fire. That’s not a cue for you to escalate the situation even more (after they had already released your friend) by blocking their patrol car from moving.

    Now, be rational for a minute. Be completely real with me:

    Would you honestly describe the events that happened after the fire as “well under control”?

    Think real hard before you answer that.

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29. Kyle Apr 6

    But protesters did act like crakcheads somewhere at downtown Granville on a late Friday night. how else would you explain the fire, the attempts to interrupt the firemen, all the crazy shouting and the attempt to assault a policeman who is arresting the person who prevented the firemen. The guys crossed the border of a peaceful protest. And why would the majority of students debate over what’s going on with a bunch of outcasts, who can’t even make reasonable decisions for themselves (acting like they are on crack while protesting). Sorry guys, it’s too late, nobody can afford trusting you after what happened. So try keeping your mouths shut because people like neither you nor your actions.

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30. Tim Apr 6

    I was there as well. Couldn’t agree more.

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31. Not Eden Hart Apr 6

    I really love this one! Tristan was not even there at any point of the day.

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32. Steven Klein Apr 6

    There’s new footage up on youtube:
    http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=hoVz0UoD8JY.

    She’ll have to correct this account, but it now looks like Stef began by trying to make sure the electrical equipment wasn’t damaged while they put out the fire. I am now hearing that Stef walked in front of the firemen because she wanted to know if the hose was going to be used for crowd control purposes. She then walked back and forth through the stream of water several times as the fire was put out, talking to individuals around there. The video cuts off before she was arrested.

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33. Kyle Apr 6

    Hey you young mister,

    Don’t you dare speak on behalf of everybody. Just because people are not interested in voting for the stupid hippie candidates for AMS who try to save the world and end up in Jail, or those who vote 4 times for themselves does not mean people don’t care about what’s going on in the university.

    Did you guys, claiming that you are the only ones that care about things happening here conducted any kind of a survey through which you can conclude that people do not care at all about what’s going on? How can you then say that you are the only one that care?

    Second, stop telling us what is good and what is bad for the university. You have to realize that your opinion is only valuable for yourselves and other people are not supposed to take it for granted. And I don’t see why you get so angry when somebody challenges your opinion. Do you have more information than others do? Are you the smartest guys around? What if nobody else cares about the shitty knoll? What are you gonna say? That we are corrupt, that that there’s not enough green space in UBC? C’mon dude, just look around the gorgeous campus.

    You are just a bunch of spoiled white guys, who never seen anything but Vancouver and Canada. Go find a life, go find a job and once you become sustainable and able to take care of you, your bills and your tuition, then go and protest when you come back after 12-15 hours of school and work a day.

    And what’s wrong with shopping malls at all? If you just lack social skills and feel uncomfortable in mainstream shopping places, go to wreck beach, smoke your pot, sing your songs and live like hermits. A new mall will be amazing. A new mall means i don’t have to spend 3 hours on traveling to Metrotown Mall each time I wanna go shopping. It also means at least 500-700 new jobs on campus,where international students like me can easily work. A new residence place means that a significant part of it will be ran by housing and conferences who will provide underpirced housing, dedicated for students.

    And since I might be accused that I don’t care about what happens in the university I will prove the contrary to by asking Ms. Stephanie Ratjen to resign. In fact, to a great extent I am concerned about the life in my university and I do state that a person with criminal charges, one that abuses authorities and organizes events that turn into outrageous protests, involving explicit language, arsons and civil disobedience does not deserve and by no means could have the privilege to represent me and my fellow students as a VP External in the Alma Mater Society. And NO, there was no police brutality. I was there personally, I talked with the policemen, who were extremely friendly with me while you guys stormed that cruiser, I saw nobody being teased, punched or otherwise abused by the authorities.

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34. Tom Apr 6

    This protest and the way the Trek Park movement has been handled makes it very easy for others to dismiss those involved as “Damn Hippies”. I think there are good arguments to be made against the instillation of a $40 million underground bus loop. Unfortunately, and semblance of rational debate and discourse (In the spirit of an institute of higher learning) has been hijacked by the SDS. This small minority of students seems to prefer spouting empty rhetoric about “evil corporations” and the crushing of student’s democratic rights. In many ways their gross over-simplifications and sensationalism is no different from that of Karl Rove and George W. Bush. False claims of police brutality do nothing to help their cause. A crime was committed when the Fire service was prevented from doing their duty. This country was founded on the rule of law, and those responsible of breaking the law should face the consequences. The Police were simply doing their duty to preserve the peace and ensure the safety of all those involved. I’m sure all the so called protesters will get their day in court, and it will be up to our justice system to decide. Our country grants us freedoms, but we also have responsibilities; something these students seem to have forgotten.

    If Stefanie Ratjen is found guilty of any wrong doing she should be removed from office. Our university community should have no place for people such as this.

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35. Kyle Apr 6

    First of all, the policemen released Stephanie Ratjen to prevent escalations while they waited for backup. If you were a bit rational and just wait for the policemen to do their job, no reinforcements would have arrived. And why after the police told you the show was over, you continued to act agressively instead of just going home as the police adviced you. After all, in the girl did nothing wrong, she would be released with no charges. You ain’t anybody, you can’t tell the police to release somebody just because you are his/hers friends. If you guys didn’t surround the car, everything would be so smoother.

    Second, nobody has to justify anything to you when a group of drunk/stoned kids decides to start a 20-feet-high fire. Their job is to restore order and extinguish the fire.

    If you continue to claim that there was so much violence that night, WOULD YOU HAVE THE BALLS TO GO AND SUE THE POLICE FOR OVERREACTING? I doubt it. Everything is videotaped by CBC/witnesses, so when you go to court and stand before the jury you won’t be able to talk the shit you write on discussion boards online.

    Reply

36. Kyle Apr 6

    I agree. It’s not people’s problem that they can’t understand you. Stop being victimized and start looking for the problem in yourselves, not in others.

    It is pity that you cannot present your ideas and simply explain what you are fighting for, but it’s anything but others’ fault. Try to deliver your ideas to the audience, instead of accusing the audience that it can’t understand you. And if the audience just doesn’t give a shit on what you stand for, don’t assume that they don’t care of what’s going on with the university at all.

    Reply

37. joe Apr 6

    “…if the university doesn’t want to listen, what more can they do?”

    I believe that that is the wrong attitude. Canadians are guaranteed the rights of free speech and freedom of assembly so that they can make their opinions heard until the bitter end.

    That’s not to say that I agree with the tactics of the protesters. I am finding it hard to piece together what actually happened based on the accounts I have read and footage I have seen. However, just because you send in a petition which is rejected, that certainly doesn’t mean that you should go home and say to yourself “oh well, what can I do?”. In Canada, what you can do is protest for what you believe in and make your beliefs heard.

    Reply

38. Kyle Apr 6

    If she was so concerned of the consequences, why didn’t she tell her people to back off and not to start a fire? Maybe she didn’t actually want a peaceful protest (who the f**k organizes a protest to attract attention at 8pm on Friday, when nobody is on campus), but a entertaining way to get wasted on the weekend. If she cared about the equipment, if she cared about the crowds of people, if she really cared about the ideas and her career in AMS, she would have never let the people set a bonfire. Instead, she prevented the firemen do their job.

    Reply

39. joe Apr 6

    Underpriced housing? I don’t want to debate the validity of the new bus-tunnel-mall-housing idea, but I think it’s a stretch to call housing at UBC underpriced. Seems to me like another chance for the University to cash in on its campus atmosphere with more condos for rich people who miss their University days and want to recapture some excitement in their boring lives with that atmosphere… which they will inadvertently quash with their very presence.

    Reply

40. Pete Apr 6

    Hey Steven,

    Does SDS ever plan on cleaning the pile of smoked wood you guys left at the protest area from the fire you started?

    Reply

41. Steven Klein Apr 6

    “Does SDS ever plan on cleaning the pile of smoked wood you guys left at the protest area from the fire you started?”

    We already have.

    Reply

42. Bahram Norouzi Apr 6

    Since the cycling guy was taken to the police station with me, and since he had to ask us what the whole fiasco was about, I think I have good reasons to think that the guy just had nothing to do with the protest.

    Is there anything that I should be ashamed of and apologize to students about: Yes! When people stood in front of the firehose, I should had gone there and told my friends that what they were doing was not cool. Not only I didn’t do that, but also I was caught in the heat of the events and chanted “Save the fire, Save the Knoll” (which astonishingly means nothing). That was very wrong, and I agree with you that the people who were there should reflect seriously about what they did on that moment.

    Having said that, I am not resentful of what actually resulted in my arrest, and I think other arrested students shouldn’t be sorry for not complying with the police. The police simply used excessive force to arrest Stef and the other guy. The police is now saying that the other guy resisted arrest, which simply is a lie. The police had no reason to arrest the other guy. To protest unreasonable arrest is to me a reasonable thing to do. And I was arrested for yelling “shame” at the police and I still think that the police was acting shamefully. And there is no reason to apologize to students for “being associated as a part of the same institution as you do”. This is a university not a cult. People come here with different opinions and different politics. The only people who should be apologizing to students are those people in the administration who are turning a public institution like UBC into a private commercial enterprise.

    And regarding the obvious fact that Trek Park is not representing all students: well, I don’t think anyone has ever questioned that. That’s why we collect signatures for petitions. Petitions usually say: “we the undersigned…” meaning that not everyone, but those who sign the petitions agree with the ideas claimed there. This, I assume, is one of the many ways that democracy works.

    Reply

43. joe Apr 6

    I’ve seen the underground bus loop idea glorified several times now in this article’s comments. I’d just like to point out why I believe it’s a bad idea.

    - It will probably become obsolete if a skytrain comes out to UBC, which seems likely.

    - It will take enormous amounts of energy not only to construct but also to continuously ventilate (btw, diesel fumes in an enclosed area? really?) this new bus loop. To me this makes the idea decadent, wasteful, and unsustainable. I bus to and from UBC 5 days a week and I can honestly say that I don’t think it’s worth it to not have to stand in the rain.

    - During the space race the US spent millions of dollars developing a pen to write in zero gravity. The Russians used a pencil. Maybe we could just build more shelters at the current bus loop if rain is the issue?

    Reply

44. joe Apr 6

    Well put, Tom. I agree with you. I am firmly against the idea of the new bus loop and mall, but unfortunately I believe that things like this do not help the cause.

    That being said, I find the university’s refusal to listen to the outcry of opposition to this bus loop very frustrating. It seems to me that most people who have investigated the issue seem to find the idea ridiculous, but the administration continues to blindly push ahead with it. I truly hope that the plan will not go ahead.

    Reply

45. A-Wol Apr 6

    Hey Trek Park folks, I’ve got a big pile of garbage with sporadic patches of grass in the alley behind my apartment building. Is there any way you guys could come down, you know, maybe do a little singing and holding hands around a bonfire out by the dumpsters? Then to top it all off, when the fire department comes to put it out because its a risk of burning down something that is actually valuable, we can get a really unattractive and dirty looking girl to stand in front of the hose. It’s perfect. That way we can finally call out those fascists for everything they’ve done to us and our precious alley. I’m thinking maybe Friday, does that work for you?

    Reply

46. random guy at ubc Apr 6

    Re Pedro;

    “how about 29 900 people don’t care about it or anything relating the uni anyway. 6% voted for our AMS presidents. at one point 4000 students (~10%) of our 45000 student population.”

    Perhaps the reason why there is student apathy during the AMS election is because students don’t want to associate themselves with people that act and behave like idiots i.e. fire starting crackhead hippies that hold hand while singing/dancing their way to becoming criminally charged protesters.

    What a burn this protest has turned out to be for you protesters. I love it. In a way (through these comments, the comments on youtube and through many other private conversations) the silent majority is showing that we care about our voices and that we detest those that think they know what our voices are.

    random guy at ubc
    witnessed the idiocy first hand.

    Reply

47. Also Not Eden Hart Apr 6

    Yeah but when he tries to speak on behalf of AMS without talking to any execs, that’s a problem. A big one.

    Reply

48. Also also not Eden Hart Apr 6

    When did he do that?

    Reply

49. Kyle Apr 6

    Bahram,

    If you stay behind your words, go to court and sue the policemen. The legal system here in Canada is well tuned so if you and your friends faced violence, you can be compensated.

    “This is a university not a cult. People come here with different opinions and different politics.”

    I agree, but I should also let you know that opinions are something you have from and for yourself, and you only share it when people are interested to hear about it. You should also realize that attending UBC is a privilege, not a right. By being here you represent yourself AND your student body. What you did mainly affects your life, but it also affects mine and the that of everyone in Arts, because we are parts of the same academic institution. Not to mention the fact that you, the organizers, not only represent yourselves, you represent the organizations you head (knoll aid, AMS) and you were elected there by the people who gave you their trust, by one means or another. If you are adults, you guys have to take responsibility and apologize for the disappointment you brought to those who once trusted you. I think I was clear why you need to apologize. It is not because the causes you stand for, it’s for the people who you represent.

    When I voted for Stephanie Ratjen, I never heard or read some statement of hers, that involves setting fires or organizing “peaceful protests” that turn to be uncontrollable riots. That’s why I trusted her. Then she acted in a very inappropriate manner which made me disappointed. I don’t trust her now. Once she accepted the position as an AMS executive, she also accepted full responsibility of her actions. I think I was clear enough.

    Reply

50. Kyle Apr 6

    Joe,

    It is also important for you to understand that besides rights, you also have obligations you have to stick to. If what you say is offensive or if you promote violence (fuck the pigs, whatsoever) you infringe other people’s right of freedom of speech.

    Reply

51. Kyle Apr 6

    Hey guys, you still don’t get it. The big deal here isn’t that some kids got their hands cuffed for 20 mins and were given a ride to the prison cells. The deal here is that AMS executives organize a series of unlawful and unconstitutional events (conquering private space and throw all the dump there, Set a 12 feet fire /it’s not a f**kin bonfire, when it’s huge/) and more importantly, do stand for what they promised. That’s what kids do in middle school when they do pranks. If you want to be a public figure and run office, you have to face prevent you and people that work for you of doing dumbass things.

    Reply

52. Kyle Apr 6

    Re: joe,

    Yes, indeed, hosing is underpriced. You get a room of yours with a shared kitchen/washroom in Gage for about $400 a month. You just go 200 meters and you are in the village, where the same room will cause you about $900, which is more than two times and it is the market price, because landlords set the price by themselves and housing there is always full.

    You also forget to explain what you think on the advantages that a mall gives.

    And what’s wrong with private condos when the university is getting the money anyways. University ain’t like you, it can’t move the money from one pocket to another, neither can spend it for sport cars and yachts. The revenue University gets is spent and invested in improvements. You can always go and see the budget and how the money is spent. Believe me, there are no freemasons, Zionists or Scientologists that spend your money for their evil causes.

    Reply

53. Kyle Apr 6

    “I bus to and from UBC 5 days a week and I can honestly say that I don’t think it’s worth it to not have to stand in the rain.” Just because you have an opinion does not mean that everybody else agrees with you and that the University has to change its policy.

    Reply

54. joe Apr 6

    Clearly the same applies to your point of view. Does the university have some policy that we need to be extravagant?

    Reply

55. Kyle Apr 6

    Naaah, stop lying guys, I just passed by, everything is there – the ashes, the stupid signs, the dome…. You simply don’t do what you say.

    If you were to be sustainable, you would never use oil paint for your boards. It is not suitable for outdoor uses, and taking in mind that it is constantly raining here, a significant amount of chemicals is already in the Ocean. HAha! Shame on you! Now you go and protest because the Ocean is polluted.

    Not to mention what you did to construct the “grass zone” and the “car free area”. I was there when a bunch of hipps parked a huge vehicle (of course, it was parked in the “car free area”) and start unloading around 50 2 mm thick polyethylene bags, that were full of soil. Not only did you use tons of plastic bags for something totally necessary, but you also used a huge car to set up a car-free zone. Shame on you! Now go and protest for a better sustainability.

    Can you guys who were there deny that? In case you do, I’ll just assume you still think you’re in middle school.

    Reply

56. joe Apr 6

    I don’t think a brand new condo in the middle of campus will run $400 a month. All the housing in UBC is privately owned actually; it is just run by UBC housing.

    What bugs me about both retail establishments and private condos on campus is that it kills the student community. I don’t like seeing our campus turn into an up-class neighbourhood. Campus is a pretty boring place these days, and that can be largely attributed to our private condo neighbours raising a stink over every loud party or beer garden.

    While I am at university, possibly the last place in my life where I will be both young and surrounded by young people, I want to enjoy myself. I do not want to be just another piece churned out of a degree factory.

    Reply

57. joe Apr 6

    I understand your point and I agree. This is the same logic that says you can’t claim that freedom of speech allows you to yell “FIRE” in a crowded theater.

    My only point was that if you really believe in something then having a petition rejected does not mean that you should stop making your beliefs known.

    Reply

58. Steven Klein Apr 6

    “Naaah, stop lying guys, I just passed by, everything is there – the ashes, the stupid signs, the dome…. You simply don’t do what you say.”

    I’m sorry, but you are the person who is lying. There may be a few ashes we weren’t able to scoop up, but that isn’t anything like the remains of a bonfire. I also didn’t say anything about the signs or the dome, so I have no idea why you brought that up. I see no reason to clean up what isn’t a mess.

    Reply

59. Bill Apr 6

    I first want to say that what the students who were involved in the protest are trying to do is ridiculous. As it has been said so many times here on this forum, there was no police brutality. The police were faced with a group of students, many of whom were under the influence of something, chanting and yelling as they approached. Do not think for a second that the police weren’t themselves scared. They were probably more scared than the students, who by this time had convinced themselves what they were doing was not illegal.

    Let me set out the situation very clearly for anyone who is confused with all this argument. I will try to be unbiased, but apologize in advance, for I agree very much with those who have spoken before.

    A large fire was started, and no matter how much people argue that it was “under control”, it was an illegal hazard. The firefighters, who were simply doing their job, arrived to put out the hazard and the students responded by forming a wall in front of the firefighter with a hose. All of this can be seen on video on youtube. This obstruction was illegal. Making the fire was illegal. Stopping the firefighters from putting out a fire was illegal. Anyone resisting the dousing of the fire could have been arrested.

    And some people were arrested. Then, because the students thought the arrest was unlawful (which was clearly wrong) they decided to “obstruct” the police from making the arrest. This is the charge; this is the illegal act. The peaceful protest went from being about the knoll and the students rights to being about a large fire, and the fact that students were making this a metaphor for their suppressed desires, whatever they may be. After all, who are the firefighters to put out a large and dangerous fire.

    As I said, I was there, and I heard the students reassuring each other that there was video evidence proving their innocence. The only video evidence I have seen (and I have seen all that has been released) shows a large group of rowdy and obnoxious students yelling, cursing and jeering at police and firemen trying to do their job. I felt embarrassed watching it. Hearing these students yelling like they did at the “authority”, yes I said it authority, was embarrassing. Authority is there to protect us, and to treat them in that way was completely uncalled for. After all, they were only protecting those people around the fire, which at the time was flaming very heavily and could have easily produced large enough sparks to start another fire.

    In some of the press releases, it states the the firemen assessed the situation and deemed the fire unsafe. I read this following a students comment that the fire was under control. Who do you honestly think I am going to believe when it comes to fire safety?

    As has been said, the students actions towards the authorities were uncalled for and in themselves unjust. It should be noted that the police did not “bring the violence themselves”. The police were trying to resolve a situation that had gotten completely out of hand without any of their doing. If a robber were to be caught in a house and arrested, and then some of his friends were to sit around a police car arguing his arrest, do you think the police would cave and let the guy go? Even though there was no robber, the man arrested was arrested because he was endangering people by interfering with a safety measure that was being taken. He was justly arrested. And all of his friends were wrong to protest that.

    I hope that these students learn a lesson, and I hope that the consequences are not to severe. However, I hope this only because I feel for those students who were sucked in and made to believe that what they were doing was right. It would be a shame, but certainly a possibility that all of these students be charged with obstruction, and have a criminal record. For some of them, maybe that is what it will take to make them think next time. For others, it may make them angrier. I respect those who might learn from this blatant disregard of authority and feel sorry for those who feel like they do not deserve what comes to them.

    And yes, I saw this ordeal first hand. Do not try and convince me that what I witnessed was not true.

    Reply

60. Bill Apr 6

    I completely agree.. on a side note, but still very related, I want to point out that the press release by the Student Democratic Society was completely ridiculous. If you do not believe me, read it for yourself.

    Reply

61. Tom Apr 6

    I agree with you completely.

    I am disgusted with the way the Emergency services were treated in this incident, particularly the Fire Service. These brave men and women put their lives on the line to protect the people of our community and save lives. When they arrived to put out the fire, that was not only a hazard to property, but the safety of the obviously intoxicated protesters, they were greeted with jeers and catcalls. The Trek Parkers seem to think that the Firemen enjoyed crushing their protest, and I have even heard slanderous claims that Firemen allegedly beat up the demonstrators. The Firemen were simply doing their job as directed by the law. I would like to see what the protesters would still have the same sentiment if they are involved in a fire and have to be rescued by those “Fascist Pigs”.

    Reply

62. Eden Apr 6

    On the radio, and:

    http://www.straight.com/article-140020/ubc-students-call-public-inquiry-investigate-rcmp-response

    Reply

63. Steven Klein Apr 6

    Bill, did you witness the mass arrest two hours later? If so, you either forgot to talk about it or intentionally left it out. While Stef was clearly wrongfully arrested, and from what she has said now said to me had legitimate reasons for why she stepped in front of the hose (I’m sure she will began discussing these reasons once she gets some more rest), the really shameful police behaviour was during the mass arrests.

    Reply

64. FD Apr 7

    “Authority is there to protect us…”

    I don’t know whether to count this statement as bias, which is supposedly absent from this comment, or just a general political naivety. Once I’ve figured that out, I will then move on to the decision whether to laugh or cry about it.

    Reply

65. E C Apr 7

    You were there personally, I wasn’t. But looking at the videos, the fireman had the hose pointed directly to.. guess what.. an out of control fire!?! *gasp*! he wasn’t aiming at the electrical equipment, nor the crowd! It seems clear to the video viewers what their intentions were, and I believe they must have said what they were going to do to the protesters. How can you possibly defend that she was “wrongly arrested” when they have every intention of doing their job, only to be obstructed by students who wanted to “save the fire”?

    And yes, from my perspective, the fire WAS out of control, because I do not see anywhere in the videos that there were any source of water or fire extinguishers in the surroundings that were able to put out the fire should something escalate… say someone fall into the fire..? I would like to know how the SDS or the organizers plan to douse the flames should something happens, preferably with proof of some sort and not just “eyewitness accounts”.

    I was there on Sunday, the day that SDS supposedly cleaned the area, but I witnessed a large chunk of wood still sitting there. How long do you think that pile of wood would have sustained the fire? I am no chemist or a professional pyromaniac, but I would say it would have lasted at least 3-4 more hours. Just because the firemen put out the fire doesn’t mean the situation is “under control”, it is under control when the protesters are dispersed and safely returned to their homes. Do you expect the police to just pack it up and leave the pile of wood there so that some other protesters, who judging from the video are not in the right state of mind, to light it up again and possibly create an even more hazardous situation?

    So in your opinion, how should the police have handled the mass arrest? Should they not have it at all and just release the person who was sitting inside the squad car? I would love to hear what your thoughts are on that.

    Reply

66. UBCLAWJLEAGUE Apr 7

    This may have started up as a peaceful protest but turned sideways because of the students not the police. The protesers had a large bonfire, which is illegal and a danger to public and property. Therefore, the fire officials are called, when they arrived some protesters attacked firefighters and prevented them from extinguishing the blaze. Fact, it is against the law to obstruct a emergency responder in carrying out their duties. When the police arrived to assist, some protesters turned angry at the officers, yelling “shame” and “fuck the pigs.” Warnings were given to protesters to get back however no one obeyed the lawful commands and therefore were arrested for obstruction and in some cases assault against a police officer. A protester was arrested and placed in a police car and other surrounded it, this is illegal and if you don’t move you get arrested, its that simple.

    The students that were arrested deserve it, there was no police brutality. They should be dealt with according to the law and also UBC code of conduct, if they are students they could face discipline by the school.

    I know the protesters are trying to perserve the environment however doesn’t burning stuff cause harm to the ozone? Just a thought.

    If there is another demonstration I hope the police do not change any methods or tactics in dealing with a situation like this. It is the students that need to behave.

    No public inquiry required here.

    Reply

67. Bill Apr 7

    I did not intentionally leave the mass arrest out. I thought that by describing all the pre-mass arrest events, I would therefore quell any doubt that the students were not doing something illegal. Obstructing an arrest is a criminal offense, one that warrants arrest and charge.

    Reply

68. Bill Apr 7

    You are the one calling me naive? I know that anarchy may sound tasty at first, but in fifth grade we learn how ridiculous it is in practice. Yes police are there to protect us, no matter how much to try and fight it.

    You need to get a reality check and realize that the police do a hell of a lot more good than anyone ever gives them credit for. And you call this a biased opinion?? Fine. I’m sorry that I believe in the institutions that were put there to protect us. In my experience (including this protest), the police were sent to do just that.

    Reply

69. Nick Apr 7

    I also agree with Bill.

    What Steven Klein is failing to realize is that the students knowingly obstructed the firemen and police officers from doing their job after they responded to an illegal fire. This is a criminal offence. As Bill stated, every student that participated in this obstruction could have been arrested and charged.

    Reply

70. Nick Apr 7

    “While Stef was clearly wrongfully arrested”

    The only thing that is clear from the video was that she was preventing the firefighters from doing their job. That alone merited arrest. Stop infusing your arguments with personal bias.

    Reply

71. FD Apr 7

    I call you naive because, by definition, the first and foremost objective of “authority” is to protect itself. That has nothing to do with the fact that, occasionally, the individual may also benefit in this process. But that is an effect, not a principle. I also call you naive because of your constant invocation of legality. Quite evidently, to you, every juridical policy, which is more or less arbitrarily posited by an “authority”, is an irrefutable law of nature. But the laws, for instance, that allowed these policemen to arrest those protesters have nothing in common with, say, the law of gravity – beyond the name. Legal codes are man-made and can therefore well be questioned and, where necessary, opposed. And now, after your last comment, I can finally also call you naive because you seem to think that one has to be an “anarchist” to realize this essence of the law and criticize some of its specific manifestations. Unfortunately, I am fully aware that you share this kind of naivety with a vast majority of people. But that doesn’t mean it has to stay that way.

    Reply

72. Ali Apr 7

    Re: Kyle

    “people are not interested in voting for the stupid hippie candidates for AMS”

    …it was you who said “Don’t you dare speak on behalf of everybody” right?

    Excellent logic sir, except I wasn’t aware that the AMS candidates were composed solely of “stupid hippies”. Right, because they weren’t. Furthermore, if people are so against these “stupid hippies” i would think the proper course of action would be voting against them in the election rather than what i think you’re suggesting, that people chose to forfeit their right to vote to make a statement?

    I don’t think Pedro was speaking on behalf of everyone so much as stating a very valuable statistic in support of his argument (i think this should be allowed in healthy debate no?) Less than 10% of UBC students voting in AMS elections? That my friend, is not a statement. That, is apathy.

    Finally:

    “You are just a bunch of spoiled white guys, who never seen anything but Vancouver and Canada.”

    Keep up with those unfounded insults sir, they make your argument appear all the more dignified and really work in proving your point that the people you are condemning are the stupid ones.

    By the way, Pedro is an international student.

    Reply

73. nani Apr 7

    how long students had the fire on till the first police came?
    was it almost an hour? or less than that?

    Reply

74. Tyson Apr 7

    The outrage and frustration felt by the student body over the portrayal of this event in the media is well founded. It is time that we have our voices heard. The voice of we the majority of UBC students, who search for objective truths and real solutions. Students who have learned through their studies to look at all sides of the debate before making an opinion. This is our campus, our school, for some our workplace and for others our home. It is time we have our voices heard. Voices that until know have been silent. We cannot allow fringe organizations and radical individuals to represent the whole! Let educated, civil and productive debate begin. Not only on the topic of the Busloop, but on all issues involving our campus, and the student body. We are Students for a Lawful and Progressive Society. Read our maxim online, via Facebook and join this new student organization which pledges to foster debate, free of divisive and sensational rhetoric. Together we can focus our respective frustrations into productivity.

    Students for a Lawful and Progressive Society.

    Reply

75. Arvind Saraswat Apr 7

    I strongly believe that excessive force was used by police. Organizers of the event and the student leaders should have tried to diffuse the situation (and the ‘FIRE’) rather than just letting it go the way it did.

    Reply

76. C Apr 8

    Perhaps this article should have been edited for correct grammar before it was published…

    For example, please note:
    “The WOMEN in the water was Alma Mater Society (AMS) VP External Stefanie Ratjen.”

    SHOULD read:

    “The WOMAN in the water…”

    It’s not really that hard.

    –

    Watch the videos. The police did nothing whatsoever inappropriate. The hippies were arrested in the same way people who resist arrest are always arrested. No excessive force was used. None. You break the law, you get arrested. End of story.

    Quite frankly, I’m embarrassed to go to a school that’s had its student body portrayed in this way in the national media.

    I’m also embarrassed by the way in which the protesters were treating the firemen. These are people who risk their lives for a living. To stand in their way, yell at them, and insult them, just shows a complete lack of respect. It’s disgusting.

    Reply

77. rose Apr 8

    if this article is for today, why are all these comments from yesterday posted? it seems that a lot of people commenting in a pro-police manner are not well informed as to the context of what actually happened.

    also, if you look at the videos and pictures, stefanie wasn’t put in a police car. she was pinned on the ground, face-down in a puddle.

    Reply

78. joe Apr 8

    This article has been up since early Saturday and the bulk of it is unchanged from what was originally written (at least that is what it seems like to me… perhaps someone from the Ubyssey can clarify?) It seems as if most of what has been added is regarding the trial dates and charges against the students as well as the comment from the RCMP.

    Reply

79. The Ubyssey Apr 8

    Webmaster’s Note:

    joe is correct. The story was updated from its original version, which appeared Saturday to avoid redundancy and to preserve/continue the conversation.

    Please find the story’s original text below. Sorry for any confusion.

    Approximately 20-25 UBC students were arrested Friday night as Knoll Aid 2.0, a student-organized demonstration, turned ugly.

    The demonstration, billed as a ‘peaceful celebration in defence of public space’ by organizers, began to escalate at around 6pm after students listening to music and dancing in the area between the old bus loop and the grassy knoll decided to light a bonfire on the sidewalk.

    Approximately one hour later campus RCMP and firefighters arrived, to the dismay of those in attendance. Students responded by trying to obstruct the firefighters access to the bonfire.

    “They were playing music, everything was peaceful. What happened was, there was a bonfire, the police came, and eventually the fire trucks came,” said UBC student Andrew Witt.

    “Eventually people blocked the firemen from pouring water on the fire…two people were subsequently forced on the ground. One person’s face was shoved in the water, she couldn’t move, the officer had his forearm pressing down on her, eventually another person was thrown away into a cop car.”

    One or more students, including Alma Mater Society (AMS) VP External Stefanie Ratjen, were arrested, and those not detained proceeded to encircle the police cruiser in which she was being held in order to secure her release.

    “People then linked arms, to block the car, and we were able to negotiate her release,” said Witt.

    The group then decided to surround a second police vehicle, however by this point, police backup from both the campus RCMP detachment and the Vancouver Police Department arrived, precipitating the arrest of approximately 20 more students. At this time, the situation had attracted a substantial crowd of onlookers.

    “People surrounded the car, and then squad cars from Vancouver, Richmond, all over the lower mainland, they started arresting people…25, 30, 40 arrested,” said Witt.

    Witness accounts and photos of the incident show police using significant force to detain an number of students, many of whom were seen being forced on their stomachs, with their face in the pavement and handcuffed with zip-ties.

    According to witnesses, it took two full police wagons and a number of other police vehicles, including squad cars and trucks, to transport all the detained to detention.

    Afterwards, a number of students decided to follow police downtown to try and find out where their friends were being held. A limited number of students were released over the early hours of Saturday morning, however many were held overnight, and were to appear in court Saturday between 11am and 1pm, including Ratjen.

    The UBC RCMP was not available to comment as of Friday night.

    For more, including extensive interviews with a number of the involved students, check out the Tuesday, April 8th edition of the Ubyssey.

    Reply

80. Anonymous Coward Apr 8

    No one should leave office over this. People who’ve experienced more facets of the system are better to have involved in the system, though that’s strictly a personal opinion.

    Not having been there and not caring to watch videos, I can’t comment on the fire, but I do wonder what forbids people from building fires. It seems to me as though it’s a perfectly reasonable way to stay warm at night.

    Arrest and subsequent detention seems very heavy-handed–even, dare I say, ham-fisted.

    I am not convinced that their fire was illegal. Was it? Why?

    This is very unfortunate, and it will do nothing to foster continued consent to government by the current generation in university.

    Reply

81. SauderBus Apr 8

    I was there, and the comments that seem “pro-police” are not, they are the facts. People are put onto the ground because its safer for the officers and usually the person resisted. And for the puddle, thats a result of a fire that the protestors started and the firefighters had to put water on.

    This will fall on deaf ears because its the common theme to blame the police, no one wants to take responsibilty for their actions and mistakes.

    If there is still confusion about the arrests, pick up a criminal code and read causing disturbance, assault, obstruction. Read carefully.

    Reply

82. Steven Apr 9

    I’m absolutely loving the amusement this protest has generated for me. Some of the stupidest students on campus congregate to protest the big bad university (which they, by attending, are implicitly supporting through tuition) and they get mildly touched by police, and they scream bloody murder! These boys and girls are stuck in a dream world, and a cold fire hose, a night in jail and a realization that their future travel plans are going to be severely restricted is exactly what they needed. A taser or nineteen wouldn’t have been out of place. But, my favourite story so far has been Maxim Winther’s babying bullshit as reported by The Province. They had to drink water from the sink and endure a little discomfort in jail! SACRE BLEU! Serves them right and I’m glad to hear that the real intelligent students at UBC don’t give a rat’s a**.

    Reply

83. FD Apr 9

    “A taser or nineteen wouldn’t have been out of place.”

    As we’ve learned from another glorious RCMP moment in the not-too-distant past, for which they were not at fault either (and of course the police always takes responsibility for their actions), it only takes about four taser shots to effectively silence those uprooting – in any way, shape or form – the tenets of law and order. But since, as I now know now thanks to Steven, it is a sign of ignorance or even inferior intelligence to even very innocently question these and that any force meted out in response to uphold the status quo is beyond reproach, I can fortunately sleep soundly tonight.

    Reply

84. Brendon Apr 9

    For some clarity on U-Blvd, to any of those who are still reading this far down…

    Many members and founders of Trek Park were instrumental in seeing changes to the U-Blvd plans. this time last year, UBC Board of Governors (BoG) was about to approve the plans for the area, and they were terrible. They weren’t responsive to students’ needs for study/social space, and they destroyed things that students value (like green space, the Knoll, etc).

    The AMS presented the petition to BoG in May, and the University agreed to start over with the designs for the above-ground, while re-affirming its committment to the underground bus loop by progressing on building the tunnel leading to the bus loop (which is the current construction going on in that area). Many of the students involved in teh petition were offended that the University would still commit to building the bus loop and in September they started Trek Park as a protest, drawing on larger questions about campus development, corporatization and public space and the University taking students’ seriously.

    I spent the year as VP Academic working with the University to try to make the plans more accountable to students. We came up with a plan, after quite extensive consultation, that I really think achieved that, and the University has since been waiting on the AMS referendum to see what role SUB REnew would be playing in the plans.

    I don’t agree with Trek Park that the bus loop is actually such a bad thing, and I don’t think their messaging is always very good or clear (and I’ve told them that). And I think that the new U-Blvd plans not only work much better for students, but will be a great new public space at the heart of campus. I also don’t think its a problem to reconstruct the knoll, and it could be structured better in this new form to serve its purpose. But many of Trek Park’s larger criticisms of the University are fair.

    I don’t know what to make of the events last weekend, but some serious discussion came up about U-Blvd and the content of the protests.

    Reply

85. Anonymous Coward Apr 9

    “Serves them right and I’m glad to hear that the real intelligent students at UBC don’t give a rat’s a**.”

    I am more or less intelligent, and I care deeply about anyone getting arrested for perfectly reasonable, peaceful conduct. They had a fire at night to keep warm. Since when is that not something people can do?

    What I find far more disturbing is the lack of negative response to the arrest and subsequent detention. Arrest to control the situation is one thing—for what reason were these students kept for so long? They attend university, and it is final exam time, so I doubt they’d flee. It seems far more like a punitive, unnecessary show of force.

    Reply

86. Nick Apr 9

    The protestors lit a bonfire in public space. That’s illegal. The protestors obstructed police officers and firefighters. That’s also illegal. Therefore, the police had the right to arrest them and hold them up to 24 hours. Perhaps the students should have thought about the potential repercussions before they started their pitiful attempt at a protest. That being said, whether in fact all 19 students arrested did in face commit a crime is a different argument.

    Reply

87. Steven Klein Apr 9

    There are some factual errors in this updated version of the article:

    1. Nobody was charged with resisting arrest. That was a mistake made by the RCMP in their press release. All the students are being charged with obstruction of a police officer, while the one fellow who was in the car is being charged with assault of a police officer (although at first we were told he was only under arrest for obstruction of a police officer. It was only after the reinforcements began to arrive that they changed the charge to assault. This video shows that he was quite far from the police officers when they tackled him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wisHNydERWg&eurl=http://www.straight.com/article-140020/ubc-students-call-public-inquiry-investigate-rcmp-response?)

    2. Stef was not trying to obstruct the firemen from putting out the fire. Other students misinterpreted what she was doing and briefly stepped in front, but they were pushed aside and none of them were arrested.

    3. As can be seen in that video, we did not surround a police car to try to stop them from putting Stef inside. We surrounded her while she was being moved and, as can also be seen in that video, convinced the police officer to release her. Students then moved to the police car where the other individual, Icarus, was being held.

    4. The guy in the photo is being charged with obstruction of a police officer. Obstruction of justice is a more serious crime having to do with police investigations and the like.

    5. Only one individual, Bahram Norouzi, was released early Sat morning, and that’s because he was only detained, not arrested. This was right after his interview with the CBC. I still haven’t figured out a not scary reason that the police would handcuff someone and take them away after giving an interview with the media, even though they know that they had absolutely no cause to do so.

    6. I’m not super knowledgeable about journalistic protocol, but I would think when you have two competing claims, you place them side by side with quotes from each. You don’t say, “Despite this person saying X, this person who has an interest to denying what the first person says thinks everything was hunkydory”. That just cannot be unbiased journalism. You lay the claims out and let the reader judge, based on the credibility of the source and the overall evidence. No “despites” or “howevers”.

    Reply

88. Steven Klein Apr 9

    Sorry, I stretched the page with that url. Here’s a shorter one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wisHNydERWg.

    Can someone edit out the longer one and replace it with that?

    Reply

89. joe Apr 9

    Brendon, you seem to have inside knowledge of this project. I’ve read several times (in this thread I suppose) that the knoll will be moved. Can you elaborate on that?

    Reply

90. Ladeh Apr 9

    Thanks Steven, for this video.

    It further shows that the protesters were indeed responsible for their own actions and need to face the consequences.

    For those of you saying it should be okay to make a fire to keep warm, please see the video Steven Klein posted. You will see just how ’small’ and ‘innocent’ this fire was…

    And to FD: You are an ignorant little child. I am appalled that you would describe those who oppose your opinions as ‘intellectually inferior.’ You are also not one to ‘clarify’ a definition of what authority is. Authority indeed must protect itself, but we also must protect authority in order to receive respect and protection in return. You were NOT respecting authority and you were NOT being reasonable or rational. The videos clearly demonstrate this, as well as an equal number of eyewitnesses claiming that your opinion on what happened Friday night is false.

    I will assume (correct me if I am wrong) that you do not have training or experience in justice, crowd control or fire handling. You therefore do not have an opinion in the matter of people being ‘wrongfully arrested’. As many people have said before me, it is for the court to decide, not you.

    You also have no authority to say what is or what isn’t political naivety. In fact, according to what you believe to be reason, you are just as likely to possess political naivety, namely with you being a part of what is looking more and more like a misinformed minority.

    Remember when you made the group condemning Alex Lougheed for voting for himself? Who would you rather have in office? Someone who voted for himself to expose a problem in the voting process, or someone who would willingly step in front of a fire hose (evident in the videos. Don’t try to deny this or say she was being rational.), willingly obstruct police officers, and may now have a criminal record?

    I don’t think Stef Ratjen will resign. But if you are against Alex Lougheed, you are against Stef Ratjen. And she should be removed from her position, as she clearly does not represent the student body or the University in general.

    I hope you aren’t Roderigo. I looked up to you before.

    Reply

91. FD Apr 9

    @Ladeh

    First off, I’m not quite sure who you think I am, but let me assure you: I’m not that person. I was neither at the protest, nor do I have any ties to the AMS (apart from paying student fees) and I certainly could not care much less about Alex Lougheed, whom I’ve never met or voted for (or against) in my life.

    That said, I did not call anyone “intellectually inferior”, apart from a sarcastic replique to Stephen’s post. That is, of course, unless you translate “naivety” as “intellectual inferiority”, but that would then be your own personal issue. With the political naivety I will stick, however, as that is excatly what is at work when someone postulates that the primary objective of any form of law enforcement was to protect the indidivual, rather than the state. And the assertion that laws are made by the people for the people, to paraphrase some of the arguments launched here, and that, therefore, it is in everyone’s best interest to abide by them without question, is clearly in the same line of ‘reasoning’. These observations are indeed naive, because they are lacking any real insight into the processes of the production and proliferation of even democratic authority, but instead take at face value the repeatedly reproduced mantras of self-justification of that very authority. And, like I wrote before, anyone who purports the idea of public law as a conditio qua natura, as opposed to seeing it for what it is – a man-made, historically differentiated and thus ultimately arbitrary construct -, does not understand the very essence of what law (in abstract form) is and can thus also not really understand the dynamics of its application and enforcement. That, by definition, is naive.

    Because I do, in fact, understand that, I did also at no point claim that these students were “unlawfully” arrested. Most likely their arrest was perfectly in accordance with the current legal standards. That, however, does not mean that I have to be affirmative of those standards. Whether we need authority to protect us, as you claim, is probably a question not ideally discussed in the feedback section of a student newspaper, seeing as it has kept political theorists occupied for centuries. In brief, let it suffice to say that I think you are, at any rate, being a bit limited in your perspective.

    But now, if you’ll excuse me. I have to get my mommy to pack my Power Rangers’ lunchbox and then be off to Kindergarden. Tata!

    Reply

92. Anonymous Coward Apr 9

    “The protestors lit a bonfire in public space. That’s illegal.”

    Is it? Why? People have been lighting fires at night to stay warm for centuries—if our enactments have gotten so out of control that people aren’t allowed to stay warm at night without permission, something is wrong.

    “The protestors obstructed police officers and firefighters. That’s also illegal.”

    Did they? Why were police officers or firefighters involved in the first place? Was it a slow day? It seems to me like these “protestors” were enjoing a peaceful bit of music and a fire, and the statute enforcement officers and firefighters interrupted their peaceful good time.

    “Therefore, the police had the right to arrest them and hold them up to 24 hours.”

    The police may have had the right to do this, but there is no compelling argument that you’ll be able to present to me as to why they had to be taken into custody instead of simply given the appropriate paperwork, a notice to appear or whatever—we’re not talking about violent crime. It is a heavy-handed attempt at behaviour modification via physical confinement.

    Personally, I feel a great need for authority to protect me from people who feel that authority is a necessity. It frightens me!

    Reply

93. J Apr 9

    Wow, I return here and people are still debating this…

    Let me break it down for those who don’t understand the way the law works.

    - Fire gets lit illegally in a public space
    - Fire department called, who have the automatic right to put out ANY fire they want, no questions asked
    - Fire department prevented from doing their jobs, also known as OBSTRUCTION OF PUBLIC SAFETY, police called
    - One arrest made, students surround the cop car to prevent it from driving away — ALSO KNOWN AS OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE
    - The police feel threatened by the looming crowd, they call backup and arrest everybody, ask questions later

    It’s not the job of the police to tinker with every protestor who’s there, and negotiate. Their objective was to resolve the fire and ensure public safety. You obstruct them, then they get pissed, and when they get pissed they use excessive force. Also, one thing that isn’t common knowledge is that police and firefighters have a common understanding. Fire fighters are VOLUNTEERS who put their lives on the line to ensure public safety, and when you block them disrespectfully when they decide that a fire needs to go out, you not only piss them off but also the police who respect their calling.

    You ask why the fire department was there, I ask why YOU were there with a huge fire going? If you wanted to do an overnight protest, then fine… but don’t light a huge fire which is HIGHLY illegal in any Canadian city, and then cry when the cops get pissed because you wasted THEIR TIME by obstructing fire fighters, and then the initial police team by surrounding their cars and threatening them.

    The police probably DID use excessive force… but they have the power in that situation, and you don’t piss off people who have the power because they’re going to come down on you. I hate the police just as much as anybody, but you pick your battles carefully. This battle was non-sense.

    The Trek Park protestors are doing whatever they can to get noticed, and this is just one example. Don’t cry about drama when you are the ones who created it.

    Did you know this story went international? The press in the states reported on it. Thanks for making UBC students look like a bunch of unruly morons who don’t understand public safety!

    Reply

94. joe Apr 9

    Regarding the legality of the fire, are there any Provincial laws regarding this? J, you mention that lighting fires is illegal in any Canadian city… but as far as I’m aware, UBC is not part of a Canadian city and does not have bylaws.

    I’m asking because I don’t know, not to disagree (which I clearly can’t do if I don’t know what the law is). Just as a side-note, I do completely agree that at that size the fire was dangerous (perhaps more so to the protesters than any property, but either way) and should have been put out.

    Reply

95. Bob Apr 9

    Thanks for muddying the waters with more ‘facts’ that aren’t.
    It is clear from this account that you didn’t witness the events in question.

    For example, you say: “One arrest made, students surround the cop car to prevent it from driving away — ALSO KNOWN AS OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE”
    Two things wrong here – 1. There were two arrests made. Ratjen was let go because protesters surrounded her and linked arms. The cops decided it wasn’t worth their time to try to push the point and arrest her for something as innocuous as standing in front of a fire hose and let her go. 2. It is NOT known as Obstruction of Justice, that is something that happens in a court room.
    You say: “The police feel threatened by the looming crowd, they call backup and arrest everybody”
    This is flat out bullshit. The police had nothing to be threatened of, the crowd was not ‘looming’, and the crowd had absolutely nothing to do with their reasons for arrest or for calling backup. You’re painting your own rationale onto the actions of the RCMP and the police.

    3. You say “but don’t light a huge fire which is HIGHLY illegal”
    Really? What’s the criminal charge for lighting a fire? Is it ten years? Or five? No – it’s a bylaw violation and it’s a ticket. I wouldn’t call that highly illegal, especially on a university campus that has plenty of other far more illegal acts, occur on a regular basis (drugs, violence, rape – just to name a few). Tons of people on campus smoke pot – would you be so quick to approve of the RCMP’s actions if they arrested and detained everybody who did that? I don’t think so (but maybe I’m wrong). My point is, the illegality of the fire doesn’t warrant the police’s response to the incident.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0nT85MqPYs

    Reply

96. Anonymous Coward Apr 9

    “You ask why the fire department was there, I ask why YOU were there with a huge fire going?”

    I wasn’t there—for whatever reason, the weather just isn’t nice enough for me to hang around outside at night. I get really cold, you see, and it just isn’t pleasant. As for huge, well, I think that maybe someone is making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

    “Let me break it down for those who don’t understand the way the law works.”

    I am not sure, but it sounds like you are confusing a bunch of enactments given force of law with the Law—I am not an aspiring legal beagle, but, imo there is a pretty big difference.

    From the bible that our executive Her Majesty the Queen took her binding coronation oath on, let’s look at this Law:

    “8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”

    Romans 13:8-9

    Reply

97. Steven Klein Apr 9

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0nT85MqPYs

    Reply

98. THE MAN Apr 9

    I warned you. On a megaphone. I said very slowly, loudly and clearly the way it was.

    its on youtube. tape don’t lie.

    sincerely..

    THE MAN

    Reply

99. THE MAN Apr 9

    here here..

    I’m surprised my minions let her go as well. I let yet another future welfare recipiant slip through my gnarled moneyhooks. I’m ready to start sticking it right back to these kids.

    love,

    THE MAN

    Reply

100. Mack Apr 9

     Hey Steven

     Does the SDS ever plan on cleaning up that pile of shit you left laying around the middle of campus for the second time?

     Reply

101. Deckard Apr 9

     Lets all just agree that this was the best thing to ever happen. Seriously, 5 seconds of hippie handcuffs is all it takes to turn my trek park induced frown upside down.

     Its like watching an ugly spoiled child eat an ice cream cone on a hot day. He looks so smug, so happy and proud with himself. That twinkle in his eye, the inflated self-worth. And you scorn him, because it is hot out, and ice cream is delicious.

     And then, with deep rooted and wonderous glee, you watch as the ice cream slides ever so slowly off of the cone, striking the pavement with a wonderous SPLAT. And the smug smile… it quivers… and then.. the eyes grind shut.. and..

     BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

     while you just sit and laugh on the inside.

     Reply

102. Deckard Apr 9

     Lets all just agree that this was the best thing to ever happen. Seriously, 5 seconds of hippie handcuffs is all it takes to turn my trek park induced frown upside down.

     Its like watching an ugly spoiled child eat an ice cream cone on a hot day. He looks so smug, so happy and proud with himself. That twinkle in his eye, the inflated self-worth. And you scorn him, because it is hot out, and ice cream is delicious.

     And then, with deep rooted and wonderous glee, you watch as the ice cream slides ever so slowly off of the cone, striking the pavement with a wonderous SPLAT. And the smug smile… it quivers… and then.. the eyes grind shut.. and..

     BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

     while you just sit and laugh on the inside.

     Reply

103. rc Apr 10

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0nT85MqPYs&watch_response

     Reply

104. rc Apr 10

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wisHNydERWg&feature=related

     the above two videos demonstrate a much more coherent series of events from friday. definitely worth watching.

     Reply

105. Stephanie Apr 10

     It is amazing to me that young people in North America are blindly siding with the authoritarian protectors of the State – the police. The egregious display of privilege and cowardness that such a position entails is astonishing. It is easy to criticize so- called “hippy” protestors but it only demonstrates your own ignorance to the history of resistance that has given you your comfortable life today.

     If any of the mis-informed and duped individuals who have written posts on this site, look at one of the numerous youtube videos, you will see that the fire was clearly extinguised BEFORE the police “enforcements” arrived. Whether or not you agree with the “cause” of the protestors, we should all be supporting any displays of democratic resistance against the corporate run university, and individuals actively engaged in fighting for a collective cause that will benefit everyone at UBC.

     Reply

106. Anonymous Coward Apr 10

     “Whether or not you agree with the “cause” of the protestors, we should all be supporting any displays of democratic resistance against the corporate run university, and individuals actively engaged in fighting for a collective cause that will benefit everyone at UBC”

     Agree, but change “corporate run university” to “corporate de facto government and all of its institutions including the university”, and that is a much better statement of the situation.

     Reply

107. E C Apr 12

     “we should all be supporting any displays of democratic resistance against the corporate run university, and individuals actively engaged in fighting for a collective cause that will benefit everyone at UBC.”

     ANY displays of democratic resistance? Even if that means chanting derogatory comments and violating bylaws? A collective cause that will benefit EVERYONE at ubc? Get your head of of your ________ because you sure as hell don’t speak for everyone. Just because you THINK it does doesn’t mean you can expect other people to follow your ideals. In fact, the views of the overall majority has already been spoken via voting for the development, whereas the “petition” that was collected can hardly count as a representation, since it is biased in some ways.

     I don’t know what the police’s intentions are in calling for backup. I, however, may hazard a guess that perhaps the backup is not here for the fire, but rather to PROPERLY escort individuals who has committed a violation? They did not have enough people to move the people who are sitting around the police car and deal with the potential escalation that might be created after, so they called for backup. Perfectly legit logic I would say, wouldn’t you? What’s really stopping the protesters from lighting another bonfire again if the police decided to pack it in and leave without demonstrating that what the protesters’ behavior is unacceptable? The protesters obviously did not seem prepared to put out the fire in the first place -I did not see ANY kind of material prepared by the protesters that can quickly put out a fire of that size should something happens. I would like to know what your thoughts are on that, and also on the idea that somehow the first arrests were “illegal”?

     Reply

108. E C Apr 12

     “Is it? Why? People have been lighting fires at night to stay warm for centuries—if our enactments have gotten so out of control that people aren’t allowed to stay warm at night without permission, something is wrong.”

     People have been urinating on the sidewalk for centuries too, but you don’t see too many do that nowadays. As a society we came up with rules and regulations so that what one individual does will not cause an inconvenience to others. You think that the firemen will come and put out a CONTROLLED fire that a homeless man put up? probably not.

     “Did they? Why were police officers or firefighters involved in the first place? Was it a slow day? It seems to me like these “protestors” were enjoing a peaceful bit of music and a fire, and the statute enforcement officers and firefighters interrupted their peaceful good time.”

     Sure, the protesters were enjoying a peaceful bit of music, but the fire obviously wasn’t controlled and deemed dangerous by the firemen. Have you seen the size of that fire?! If you still choose to believe that the fire was “under control”, then there’s nothing that I or anyone can say that will change your unbiased thinking.

     Reply

109. Calen Nixon Apr 12

     I am so incredibly saddened by reading many of the discussions on this board. Who is a victim and who is to blame? For a moment, I would like to turn attention away from this question and catcalls of guilt and opinion. There are lives in the balance at this point. An arrest is a traumatic event, one where beliefs and hopes are often put to point of doubt. I am so supportive of all those students who risked their freedom to travel, to sleep peacefully and to eat food for their beliefs. Thank you for inspiring me to try and understand your willingness to face this risk. This is not the same risk of arrest some face by drinking in public or by hanging a car from a bridge. This is belief in different ways of living that are open, communal and communicative. Perhaps there has not been enough work done on communication – but there has been so much. On blog posts, in media such as The Knoll, in council meetings, in pamphlet distribution. But often to no recognition, and often to sneers of, I don’t know, jealousy, contempt, or rationalized unconcern. These arrested students care about UBC, and I believe more than I or FD or J or Kyle posters are comfortable to admit that we care. Before I think about where to engage some of the depressing opinions by such writers and important defensive thoughts by Steven Klein and Bahram I can only reflect on the care for UBC that is both unveiled and covered over too quickly in these forums. How can our care for this place, our histories and even the institution become useful communication about change?
     I will be sending President Toope an open letter formatted like this. I invite any constructive criticisms or suggestions. I would also be happy to take part in a demonstration against the UBC RCMP detachment or in support of the arrested friends of UBC, or even have a coffee to discuss thoughts on these and other UBC issues. My email is calenn@interchange.ubc.ca for information about upcoming events.

     Calen Nixon
     calenn@interchange.ubc.ca
     Philosophy 5

     Mr. Stephen Toope, UBC Board of Governors, and To Whom it May Concern,

     What is UBC in the eyes of its pupils? There is, of course, no determinate or ready answer for this question. Yet, I argue it is a question that the Executive powers and the Board of Governors must ask themselves, constantly, to achieve a sense of understanding as to what it is that they do as officials, and, I believe that it has not been asked sufficiently by those endowed with the trust placed by the communities past and at large of UBC. The question necessarily both brings forth and erases an impossible communicative short-circuit between UBC and its students. It is apparent that this short-circuit demands your attention.
     It is apparent because there is no way at-hand for me or for those arrested on April 4th to communicate to you, Stephen Toope, why you must make the official position of UBC one of understanding and not of violence and injustice. It is also apparent that the pupils have not asked the question enough either because there is a related inability to communicate between many individuals at UBC. I would like us to agree that there are many points of view on this campus, but many all converge on at least a comparable point: the significance, the authority, and the meaning of UBC. In a word, what “UBC” means.
     I greatly appreciate the time and care you have put into this affair. By listening to the positions and accounts of Campus Security and the RCMP, with the open mindedness of seeking to find the legal facts about the events that evening, to me, signifies a step in the necessary direction towards a patient and critical sense of understanding. But I urge you to listen to the voices of student eyewitnesses. Students with cameras and even those with bruises who might, even irrationally and with tremendous bias, offer alternative explanations and senses of understanding. There were pupils blinded that night. These students are not out of place at UBC, but ones that believe that they were transgressing certain pedestrian traffic and fire hazard regulations in the name of UBC. It is not the Board of Governors’ time to understand a merely official testimony. It is first of all time to announce that UBC and its officials respect the time it takes to consult and to discover – by first publicly denouncing the lack of time that officers took in understanding the actions of protesters on April 4th. I can only speculate that officials both in the RCMP and Campus Security will uniformly conceal the events by commenting on the urgency, efficiency and professionalism of their actions. But I can only put it to your attention that firsthand accounts and video evidence will inevitably unveil at least the radically forceful and impatiently hostile actions on the behalf of Police, as well as the unlawful participation in arrests by Campus Security Officers acting outside the bounds of their authority.
     There was a failure to communicate, and perhaps this is because the officers of UBC believe that the significance, authority and meaning of UBC is their hands, and theirs to protect in the name of the arm of the law. If the importance of asking “What is UBC in the eyes of its pupils?” will have been replaced with the question, “What is UBC in the hands of its officers?” then the work of some of the protestors will certainly shine forth. This brings us, students and University officers alike, to a point that must not be overlooked: the fissures between students and officials of UBC. There is not a side to take in this case, other than that of understanding and openness. In this instance, we are both instructors and students, each of us progenitor and inheritor. This is the aporia of a University of students.
     Among these students are the most brilliant, passionate and charismatic individuals I have met in five years of learning opportunities. It has been a pleasure learning with and from these students in seminars, classes and in conversation. Even if the clubs or societies they participate in have agendas sometimes at odds with patient understanding or progressive campus politics, they have viewpoints that must not be extinguished. They have voices that must not be drowned. Or radically forced face-forward in a puddle. I urge you to ask yourself the question, “What is UBC in the eyes of its students?” and consider acting now by affirming the necessary time and care it takes to understand one another, whether that be students and administration, or protesters and police. Give a public statement defending the peaceful approaches of understanding – and chastising the terrifying consequences of arriving at knee-jerk exercises of authority.

     Thank you for your valuable time,
     Calen Nixon

     Reply

110. Jon Apr 12

     Bob, just a quick comment on your statement that the police had no reason to feel threatened.

     That is completely ridiculous. I was there, I witnessed the crowd jeering and yelling. I also was witness to the fact that many people there were under the influence of some sort of substance. Do no say the police had no right to feel threatened.

     And next, it was not the fire that warranted the arrest. It was the fact that the students tried to stop the firefighters from putting out a fire they deemed unsafe. There is no debate to that.

     Reply

111. Nonoll Apr 14

     Wow….a demonstration against the UBC RCMP? For what? Because they did their jobs. When in doubt blame the police for your stupidity.

     After the lawful arrests, it was amusing to see the protestors lie about what happended. Some of them even admitted on camera to blocking the police car and preventing the firefighters from putting out the fire. I hope the ones that were arrested do get charged and if an officer was injured they should sue.

     The knoll should be bulldozed and let development happen. In the long run it means more buses and the skytrain thus less people commuting in personal vehicles therefore better for the environment.

     If there is a plan for a demonstration against the RCMP, please advertise it because I guarantee there are a few of us that will be there to support the cops.

     Reply

112. Calen Apr 14

     Nonoll,
     An officer was not injured, which was why the protesters did block the squad car. Not because he was lawfully arrested, but because it did – and I believe it will be legally adjudicated, although here we may discuss facts and our beliefs about the effectiveness of the Canadian legal system – seem unlawful and unjustified. They were doing what you might do if one of your friends was put in the drunk tank while s/he was perfectly sober and it was a matter of misunderstanding or ignorance. Perhaps see the issue this way – not about protesting for the sake of it, but for a very sincere and personal sake. The actions of the RCMP, generally a police force we don’t protest perhaps because of the important jobs they do that we compliantly rely upon, but in this instance, certain officers make statements like “Tonight I am the judge and jury” like can be heard on the 3:00 minutes of YouTube footage. I am surprised no one has commented on this. Such communication tactics give a strong effect of the powerful arrogance that can come across when squad cars and angry (mostly men) in uniform confront students in the midst of asking to be listened to.
     Nonoll, in the long run you have not done your homework on this issue. I would be surprised, although I wouldn’t guarantee, to see you giving the time of day to the police unit, seeing as you don’t give the time of day to checking your answers for understanding the events. The amusing lies of the protesters you could have “seen,” have only been broadcast by selective newsmedia and are really a poor base to satisfy your projections. If your “heard” certain of the arrested speak or read what they had to write, on the other hand, you might see their “lies” as their genuine understanding of the events. At least, give them the benefit of the doubt that they not lying. “In the long run” the “development” of UBC will not “therefore be better for the environment.” An underground busloop would be much more costly to provide utilities and ventilation for. Never mind the environmental effects of construction and transportation for materials. It has nothing to do with Skytrain. I will guarantee, though, that you might think twice about writing about “your stupidity” next time you make a generalization. Whose stupidity? Mine? The protesters? Blaming the police is convenient, but making them accountable for who and how they are arrested is, how do you say, a part of what makes police agencies function as a trustworthy and useful part of a democratic society.
     Thanks for your time,
     Calen

     Reply

113. reality! Apr 14

     thanks calen. thank you for everything you just said.

     Reply

114. Anonymous Coward Apr 15

     Seconded, great comments, Calen.

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115. eve wilensky Apr 16

     I had the opportunity to talk to many students at The Knoll over the four hour ordeal. They are a group of bright, articulate young adults who care passionately about the university, the environment, and justice. Taken as a single issue, their protest against the development of The Knoll might appear to be inconsequential, but if you see it as they do – a microcosm of a world in which rampant corporate development continues to overtake our public spaces, heedless of the cost to the environment – then the protest becomes a laudable example of responsible global citizenship.
     -Donna Gibson, witness on april 4th

     Reply

116. Stewart Trickett Aug 19

     One small point.

     Saying something offensive does not infringe other people’s freedom of speech. Indeed freedom of speech is the right to say something offensive, given that inoffensive speech doesn’t require protection,

     Reply

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