BREAKING: AMS files complaint to United Nations
Claim that government cannot meet international obligations for education
Friday, November 27th, 2009
1:45pm—The AMS has filed a complaint to the United Nations regarding the federal and provincial government’s failure to meet obligations to provide accessible post-secondary education for international students.
The AMS claims in a press release that the government is violating its commitment under the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural rights—which Canada signed in 1976—”by failing to adequately control tuition fees and not providing sufficient financial support to students.”
“Since the tuition fee freeze was lifted in 2002, student fees in British Columbia have more than doubled,” said AMS President Blake Frederick in the media release. “The high cost of tuition means that many capable students, particularly those from lower-income families, are unable to get a university education.”
The complaint was submitted to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navanethem Pillay. The report reads that the AMS is submitting the complaint on behalf of its members, along with former AMS VP Administration Tristan Markle and through the law firm Pivot Legal LLP.
Article 13 of the International Covenant reads, “Higher education shall be made equally accessible to all, on the basis of capacity, by every appropriate means, and in particular by the progressive introduction of free education.”
The complaint looks at three areas: “failure to adequately fund the post-secondary education system,” “allowing tuition to become a barrier,” and “failure to provide sufficient financial support to students in need.“
Internet response has been mostly derisive. AMS councilors have responded to Frederick on Twitter, asking how much the report cost and expressing their displeasure and confusion that the complaint did not go to AMS Council beforehand.
Frederick stated, “the complaint does not contravene any existing policies of the [AMS].”
Jeremy McElroy, Arts representative, asked Frederick on Twitter: “Where the hell did this UN complaint come from? Most certainly not Council, for whom you are quoted as representing?”
The Ubyssey is hosting a live blog event on this issue starting Saturday, November 28 at 4:30. Check it out here.
AMS President Blake Frederick Twitter Feed
UN Human Rights Complaint Flowchart
(No Ratings Yet)
Loading ...102 comments
- Terry » Archive » A Conversation at The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, as Imagined by Blake Frederick
- IMPEACH THE COMMUNIST « FOXTROT UBC: THE UNBIASED MEDIA OF STUDENT POLITICS
- The AMS and the UN: Notes on a debacle : UBC Insiders
- UPDATE: AMS President, VP External under fire | News
- President asked to resign | News
- Live Video Feed—Monday’s AMS Council meeting | ubyssey.ca
- UBC students disengaged from rezoning row | TheThunderbird.ca
- Update on UBC Student Union complaint to the UN : Macleans OnCampus
- The Scoop, part 3 | News
Loading ...
John Nov 26
I sincerely hope that no student funds have gone into this foolishness.
The complaint claims that the AMS is “…[submitting] this complaint on behalf of all UBC students…”. Blake, Tristan, how dare you lump us all in with this ridiculous move? Some (I would suggest many) of us don’t want anything to do with your insubstantial showboating.
Reply
Kramerr Nov 26
Has the AMS ever heard of Student Loans? In BC its very well managed and takes into account the wealth of the student’s family and the cost of tuition. Anyone from a low income family can get a student loan large enough to cover tuition, books, and a modest food and rent budget. If you’re concerned about repayment don’t waste your time on a degree which you can’t use to find a job.
Reply
Bob Reply:
April 11th, 2010 at 10:23 pm
what about international students who can’t receive loans?? It’s easy to criticize when the money isn’t coming out of your pockets.
Reply
John Nov 26
If Canada won’t live up to its human rights commitments, the UN should intervene military for the benefit of Canadian citizens. Evil governments shouldn’t be allowed to make their citizens suffer without consequences.
Reply
Concerned Nov 26
The title of this story is wrong.
This complaint targets the “Government of Canada” and the “Province of British Columbia” on the topic of country-wide post-secondary education accessibility, on behalf of “all UBC students.” Under a section labelled ‘appropriateness of submitting on behalf of these other people’, the report informs Commissioner Pillay about “A council of directors” and how said council “directs the non-profit organization and the day-to-day operations” of the AMS, suggesting but not stating outright that this complaint passed through said body. This, of course, is patently misleading, because it seems no-one on the council ever saw this report. This complaint was submitted by Blake Frederick on behalf of Blake Frederick.
Oh, and Tristan Markle. Large swathes of the complaint are debateable and/or just ridiculous, but the account of Mr. Markle’s experience with debt is particularly tenuous in its logic.
The account states that Merkle first managed to complete a degree at U of T ‘debt-free’. It then goes on to describe how Merkle “continued on with further education” at UBC (this time without “financial support from his parents”), and, despite earning “a part of his living through paid employment and grants”, still managed to rack up $42,000 in debt. At this point, one assumes that the account is talking about grad school, but no, Merkle apparently completed a second undergraduate degree in 2009 (“when I graduated in May 2009”). This debt, the account goes on to report, is preventing Merkle from pursuing Grad school.
So how does someone accrue $42,000 in debt while completing a degree at UBC? (Assuming Merkle completed his program in 4 years, that’s $10,500 spent per year.) Let’s compare him with the average UBC student.
Average tuition at UBC over the last four years, added together, comes to about $19,302 (4,600+4,740+4,922+5,040). Assuming our fictional student lived in either Vanier/Totem ($3,429.00), Gage ($4,432), or Rits ($4,728) over those four years, housing should have cost them, on average, $16,785 (average of those three rates multiplied by four years). Tuition and Housing, then, would have cost our student around $36,100 in total.
Merkle, then, seems to have spent:
$5,900 ($42,000-$36,100) + [amount he made working part time for four years (which, assuming he worked during the school year, for ten hours a week, at minimum wage, would still have equalled more than $9600)] + [the amount in grant money Merkle received]
more than the average UBC student did between 2005-2009.
Reply
Sean Nov 26
OH. MY. GOD.
Reply
BLARG Nov 27
This is a horrible idea. Also the above post sums up my idea on this very well.
Reply
Ashley Nov 27
I started typing that I was shocked and appalled that Blake and Tristan would do this, but then I stopped and realized I’m not shocked at all. Appalled, sure. But this is just the kind of ridiculous crap I was expecting from Blake. I was disappointed in the lack of scandal thus far, but oh ho, this has made up for it ten-fold.
I think what may upset me most is the implication that all UBC students are involved in this; I sure as hell don’t want my name attached to such a frivolous and just plain silly document and complaint.
This is just downright embarrassing.
Reply
K L Nov 27
Time for another AMS Council vote to censure Frederick.
Reply
Rebecca Nov 27
He represents the students. How can any of you possibly be upset by this? This is brave, not embarrassing. Its unfortunate that the rest of you do not have the desire to make big moves to stand up for, not only the rest of the student body,but yourselves as well. You should be ashamed of yourselves for saying such nasty and un supportive things. What good are you if you do not make change? What good are you if you do not fight like hell for educational equality?
All of the wonderful rights and privileges we enjoy (the 8 hour work day, public education, the vote for women and people of colour,etc.) exist because people like Blake do radical things because they know that if they don’t do it, nobody else will. What is so frustrating about your reactions is that if he succeeds, you will take the credit.
Good for you Blake. You have support.
Reply
Ashley Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
You seriously think this is going to make a difference? It’s frivolous, stupid, costly and embarassing. Going to the UN for a HUMAN RIGHTS violation? WTF.
You are off your rocker.
Reply
John Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Change just for the sake of change? Think about what you’re saying. You’re suggesting that we should be supporting Blake’s preposterous complaint just because it’s “out there” and “radical”. That’s a terrible reason to support something. Yes, those changes you mentioned were brought about because of brave people fighting for those causes. The difference is that those were GOOD causes. This is a bad one, at least in my view (and apparently in most peoples’ views too), and therefore I won’t support it.
In fact, I view it as an embarrassment to UBC, which is why I’m voicing my displeasure wherever possible.
Reply
SG Colette Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Okay, I am just looking for a clarification here. Are you saying that nothing should be done for tuition increases? Or that this is just the wrong move to take, but you are against student tuition increase?
I doubt that the end goal is to make tuition cheaper (I highly doubt that’s even on the table), but to freeze it or slow its rate of increase.
Reply
John (the first one) Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
In a perfect world, tuition would be cheaper, the same way that everything would be cheaper (from a consumer point of view… believe it or not these things are actually fairly complex economic arrangements, and not just “I should pay less!” scenarios). I don’t think that tuition fees right now are unreasonable and I feel that increasing tuition with inflation is a fair system.
Thus, I think that complaining to the UN about human rights violations based on the current tuition structure is naive showboating that makes all UBC students look like a bunch of whining juveniles in front of the millions of taxpayers who currently pay for 75% of our education. I am ashamed to be associated with this complaint in any way.
And that’s not even to mention the $3000+ of students’ money that was spent without an ounce of consultation with ANYONE. How many times have we heard Blake and Tim moan about a lack of consultation on the University’s part? How ironic.
John (the first one) Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Correction: I suppose I shouldn’t lump in ALL UBC students as having 75% of their tuition covered, since international students don’t get that.
SG Colette Reply:
November 28th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
I don’t know if that’s ironic.
if the news is going to get international attention, ~$3000 amounts to only a fraction of a dollar from each student, compare that to hundreds of dollars raised on tuition each year…. Doesn’t that make economic cost?
John (the first one) Reply:
November 29th, 2009 at 2:24 am
You could justify any multi-thousand dollar expense that way. “It’s only a few cents from everybody!”
How is it not ironic? He moans about lack of consultation then sneaks this by everybody, without consulting them.
FOXTROT UBC Nov 27
TIME TO END BLAKE’S REIGN OF TERROR OVER UBC.
FOXTROT DEMANDS HIS RESIGNATION!
http://foxtrotubc.wordpress.com/2009/11/27/impeach-the-communist/
Reply
V Nov 27
These guys need to take Econ 101. If they can’t afford it due to the increasing prices of both pot and education, I’ll tutor them for free.
Tristan, Blake, you guys are a shame for a serious school like UBC. Unlike you, the majority of students are willing to find a job after graduation and your actions put a stain on students’ reputation and only make the job-finding process harder.
To talk about a severe violation of human rights in Canada is a preposterous position that only cocky, selfish bastard will try to defend in a desperate effort to attract attention. There are tons of places in the World where shit goes down and your acts only show you don’t care about human rights at all. You only care about yourself.
Get a life.
Reply
M Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
I wouldn’t be so quick to say human rights violations don’t happen in Canada. But I agree that describing this as a “gross violation of human rights” dilutes the term and makes us look like spoiled brats in comparison to people who are fighting to get water, food, and basic primary education.
Reply
V Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
I agree with you, there are problems with human rights in Canada for sure, pretty much everywhere in the world, but the seriousness of the issues in Canada is nothing to compare with that in many other places in the World.
Reply
M Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Well, I think it’s pretty damn serious that there are thousands of people sleeping on the streets, that more than a hundred Aboriginal communities that live under permanent boil water advisories, that Canada has failed to prevent or investigate the violence against hundreds of Aboriginal women. Canada is currently being monitored by the UN for the latter, as well as other poverty related issues. There are definitely HR violations committed by Canada worthy of the UN’s resources and attentions, this is just not one of them at the minute.
Anyways, I think we mostly agree.
thor Nov 27
Wow. the AMS actually standing up for students? That seems like a first. This complaint seems like a long over due step towards something the AMS (and our Government) should have been doing all along.
Reply
councilor a Nov 27
To be honest, I don’t find this document embarassing. It seems to have gotten the attention of a lot of students and the media. What we should be discussing is what the document was about-tuition fees. Yes, Tristan Markle and his story is in the document package, but pointing fingers at accounting is not really the point. He is one of like, a thousand students who struggle to get an education. Every story is different. So whatever, let’s move on and talk about lowering tuition fees. That is the real topic of concern. COME ON PEOPLE.
Reply
John (the first one) Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
I see the point about stirring the pot and prompting discussion, however that strikes me as something that more than 2 people should have a say in, especially considering that thousands of dollars are set to be spent on this.
Reply
M Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
I don’t think it’s worth it to waste the UN’s extremely scarce resources just to get people’s attention. We should have been organizing protests and lobbying the gov’t but this is too far. I agree that this is a topic of real concern, unfortunately Blake has taken the focus away from the real issue by using a cheap publicity stunt.
Reply
SG Colette Nov 27
I don’t see what’s wrong with Blake’s move on this.
When I walk around in campus, I hear people complaining about paying the fee increases or talking about how their folks are stretching tight. Maybe when January’s installment rolls along, we will feel differently.
It’s not only UBC constituents who are talking either, U of T are at it too, and other Canadian universities.
Not only does it take more money for getting your 1st degree now, but since the competitiveness of a Bachelors has lost its value over the years, many of us are looking to their 2nd and 3rd degrees.
This is the first time I’ve come across this issue at UBC, which is probably why I’m really shocked to see the number of people who are putting their hands up to higher student fees. I have a hunch that it’s not only the student with low income background who’s hurt by this. It’s also those of (lower) middle-class backgrounds who will have a harder time.
Reply
Concerned Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 5:31 am
You’re right, that totally justifies CONTACTING THE UNITED NATIONS HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS.
Reply
SG Colette Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 6:54 am
Sometimes in politics, you aim for the stars.
Reply
Mitch Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 9:45 am
Sometimes in politics, you tell people (like… oh I don’t know… the elected Council or perhaps your FELLOW EXECUTIVES) that you’re helping your friend file a frivolous complaint to an international organization that has better things to do… oh and you’re paying your friend’s legal fees with student fees.
That’s nice.
SG Colette Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
I’m not here to deal with your inferiority complexes. Please watch your language towards me and focus on the issue at hand.
M Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
there are serious consequences on this one though. the UN does not have the time or resources to deal with frivolous complaints. this is a serious issue and we should deal with it seriously rather than wasting the UN’s time with a publicity stunt.
V Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Hey yo, even if the government is supposed to give everyone free education (which I truly disagree with) it doesn’t mean it’s UBC that has to give it all to you. After all, UBC is a world top 40 university, and to be that way, it has to be expensive. If you strictly prefer cheap education, it means you don’t care much about quality.
And speaking of education for everyone, what the hell do you mean by second and third degrees? There are still tons of people who don’t even have a single degree and you want someone else to pay for your second BACHELOR degree? This is so fucking selfish it’s not even true…
Reply
SG Colette Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
I’m not here to deal with your inferiority complexes. Please watch your language towards me and focus on the issue at hand.
Just to clarify, I meant Masters and PhD programs. In many fields, the value of a Bachelors degree has become obsolete over the years.
I do not understand how you can suggest this is selfish. I am not the only person who will find myself for a Masters/PhD. I’m just pointing to the obvious that while student fees increase, your degree is becoming more obsolete at the same time. Yes, we can wait for the Invisible Hand to balance itself out over the years. We can watch it max out, then readjust itself.
Something is certain, economics (maybe not in econ101) has taught us that it will skyrocket before it balances itself out. Who will say which of those years will hit the hardest.
However to wait for that to happen means those who are smart (maybe smarter than you and me) and could not afford tuition will go elsewhere for their Bachelors, maybe save up for their Masters/ PhD. Deter them from coming to UBC, and maybe goes to SFU instead. What will the undergraduate program look like? This leaves room for ‘wait-listed’ students who aren’t as intelligent but can afford it, to fill up acceptance.
I don’t know if we can correlate the quality of students to the price of education… Or that writing to the UN was the first line of protest… But I can say that I see the good-will behind this.
Reply
V Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
“…But I can say that I see the good-will behind this.”
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
What you have to realize is that tuition is strongly correlated with costs of education. Tuition is not an excuse for government to profit from the “poor” students, in fact, your tuition pays for less than the cost of education, because the university receives subsidies from the government.
I hope it’s clear for everyone that costs of cannot be frozen, we are in a market economy. By asking to freeze tuition, there are two alternatives on the road ahead:
1)As costs gradually rise and tuition stays the same, assuming government doesn’t change amount of subsidies, we’ll end up in a situation where cost will become unbearable and certain things have to be stopped. This will unambiguously decrease the quality of education provided.
2)As costs gradually rise and tuition stay the same, if government greatly increases subsidies, more students will be able to join university. However, the costs for the extra people people attending university are covered by more taxes, and thus spread uniformly across society. THIS CREATES A HUGE EXTERNALITY issue, because the costs of education are not taken care of those who are entitled to the benefits. As a result, there will be many people who will take degrees that promise little job prospects only because they don’t care the cost of the degree itself and you’ll end up with even more useless degrees and a lot more people holding them and trying to be competitive and find job out of the same pool of opportunities.
Ravi S Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
So you think that writing to the UN was a good idea?
Reply
Ron Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Although I don’t agree with Blake for going behind the councils back, I believe Blake did the right thing in filing a human rights complaint. Look, it has attracted so much attention. As a student that has never been interested in the AMS, when I saw the complaint, I was like “finally the AMS is putting their money where their mouth is”. The AMS of course have tried long and hard to lobby the government for lower tuition but no results. Many past AMS execs have failed to do anything, because they want something nice on their resume. Blake has taken a big risk, it takes balls, shows he’s truly willing to fight for students.
However, I do believe that Blake should be removed by not taking this to council.
Reply
M Reply:
November 28th, 2009 at 4:21 am
Literally putting their money where their mouth is… thousands of dollars spent on legal fees for a publicity stunt.
Reply
Andy Nov 27
Mitch I doubt that the AMS paid much, if anything, in legal fees considering Pivot is attached to this. Pivot is a non-profit legal organization that provides aid to protest groups.
Reply
Pedro Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Andy, I’m pretty sure the AMS council legal budget this year was $25000. Neal Yonson twittered that $3000 was paid to Pivot as a retainer. Final bill is not known. Pivot is a law firm that has a social advocacy orientation. They definitely charge for their services! All “profit” goes to their legal society that supports their “strategic approach to social change”.
Reply
Goldman Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
From what I’ve hear, the legal bill is already above several thousand dollars, and is expected to grow.
Reply
John Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Anything is too much.
Reply
Nic Nov 27
BECAUSE RISING TUITION IN ONE OF THE RICHEST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD IS JUST LIKE RWANDA.
Reply
Rick Nov 27
Like McElroy, I am also wondering: Whose original idea was it to write the complaint to the UN?
I’m sure I speak for the majority of all UBC students when I say that we are deeply disappointed and EMBARRASSED for being represented by a leadership this disillusioned. Your decision to write to the Human Rights Commissioner of the UN was not only unnecessary, but also juvenile and just plain stupid.
We can all agree that nobody likes the tuition hikes over the past five years, but how the hell do you expect the UN will even look into this frivolous 1878 garbage. They’ve got more serious problems to deal with right now such as the war in Iraq, woman’s rights in Iran, the child soldiers in Sudan, and don’t get me started on North Korea.
Frederick, you could have taken a more sensible, practical, better approach of rallying me and thousands of other students for an important cause so that we could get the government’s attention. Instead, you concocted something so idiotic that you make it impossible for me to respect you.
Kudos to Jeremy McElroy for stepping up in firmly opposing this and calling on the guys (i.e.: Tim Chu) that were on this. For the rest of you on the AMS Council that are with us, I want you guys to voice your outrage and to take a firm action in getting rid of these idiots before we become the laughing stock of the whole country. PLEASE!!
And when will Tristan Markle ever disappear?!
Reply
Ashley Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
“And when will Tristan Markle ever disappear?!”
MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY.
Reply
John Nov 27
I think this was an excellent way to spend over $3000 of UBC students money, and I give Blake credit for having the boldness to do so without consulting with the rest of the AMS council first.
Reply
Kal-El Nov 27
What is the safest bet to make:
a) UN Commissioner will use the letter as toilet paper.
b) UN Commissioner will chastise Blake for not spending the #3000 on saving thousands of North Korean children from starvation.
Reply
Jeet Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
c) Perhaps the B.C. govt and the UBC Senate will actually look into making UBC more affordable to more students. I’ll go with (c)
Reply
Ravi S Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
I’ll tell you why that won’t EVER happen.
The average tuition at UBC is one of the lowest compared to any University in Canada and the rate at which it increases since 2005 is lower than most other provinces, including Ontario. As far as I’m concerned, the government has done all that they could.
In all honesty, I’m actually thankful that the tuition at UBC isn’t as high as some of the other Universities out there. It is the cost of living in BC that upsets me more, but what the hell can I do. It’s microeconomics.
So I ask you, if you are not satisfied, where are you going to go? To the United States or the UK? I’ve got a better idea: How about finding a part-time job? Or taking out a student loan?
Reply
Jeet Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Perhaps you should take a full time job plus a full time course schedule before dismissing the financial concerns of others. Or perhaps Mummy and Daddy pay your tuition and you dont really have to worry about it that much.
There is a growing number of students who simply cannot afford tuition. Apart from Canadians who are simply hit by the economic downturn, think about the international students who are faced with a rising loonie, economic crises in home countries, a tuition roughly 6 times as much as Canadian students, almost no student loans, no bursaries and no student lines of credit. Where do you get the money from?
If the rate of tuition increases is simply in line with inflation, it should be falling right now, with the economic crisis. Has it? I think not. If you want to bring the economics into it, try and actually examine the different forces working.
Megan Muffins Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
You’re delusional.
Reply
V Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Jeet, UBC has an excellent scholarship program for international students, which is especially aimed at promising students with no financial ability to attend a world-class university. If you are worried about the really smart kids that can’t go to University, you better ask for more scholarship programs for both domestic and international students.
We always hear about how hard and unfair it is for you to deal with life yourself. Two things:
1) Knowing you may not be able to afford UBC as an international student, you willingly took the risk when coming to UBC. You could have chosen another place, right? You aren’t really trying to convince us you are not a price-taker, right?
2)As an international student, you are not a Canadian citizen or resident. Why would you demand the Canadian government to help you in this situation?
Reply
Jeet Nov 27
I think every student who is protesting against this move is simply being selfish and attempting to portray a holier-than-thou image which is exactly what I find disgusting and embarassing.
Have any of you considered the thousands of students who have to contend with substandard education at community colleges, simply because they can’t afford UBC tuition? Have you considered the even greater number of international students who can’t realize their dream of a foreign education just because tuition costs are high? Not only do international students bring money into Canada, they pay significants amounts into Canadian pension plans which benefit only Canadians? On top of this, you would lump high tuition, high rental costs and generally, higher costs of living? There are almost no student loans for international students, no bursaries and they can’t even take a student line of credit.
It isn’t that this protest is intended for the United Nations but for the B.C. provincial government and the UBC Senate to recognize a growing need of students. I know a lot more people are in support of this venture than are not.
Comments earlier mention that its embarassing. When you’re struggling with two jobs on top of a full time study schedule or when you’re stuck learning a trade because you simply can’t afford a university education, I don’t think you give a rat’s ass whether a protest is embarassing or not. People, get out of your ivory towers, consisting of those families that can afford to pay UBC’s tuition and look at those who can’t.
Reply
Rick Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
You must be high on drugs to not see why everybody is so upset.
- Blake & Chu issued a complaint to the UN that has given us unwanted attention and embarrassment.
- They went ahead with this without the knowledge or consent of the AMS council. If you don’t agree with me that this is clearly an abuse of power then you are definitely on drugs.
- They decided to waste away what will likely be $10G or more in legal bills, which leaves a dent in the AMS budget and limits the council from progressing with future endeavors and initiatives.
- And the money they used comes from our own pockets through our tuition.
- Adding insult to injury, these clowns won’t be apologizing and aren’t planning to resign. Thus they are unlikely to learn or change from this experience, but will only fuel their reckless behaviour.
Reply
Jeet Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Firstly, it is naive and pathetic comments like these that make me wonder if UBC should strengthen their admission policies.
Unwanted attention and embarassment? Why don’t you try working two jobs to pay off student debt or current tuition? Or why don’t you give up your spot and get a diploma in toilet cleaning from XYZ Community College because you couldnt afford to pay UBC tuition before you talk about being embarassed?
The point is not for the UN to actually send in the troops- but to bring attention to a growing need of Canadian and international students.
Resign or apologize? In my three years at UBC, this is the first time I have ever seen an AMS executive have the balls to actually do something. Okay, it wasn’t through the right channels- but at least something is happening. The AMS has become pretty much an ineffectual organization leading to, what was it, 15% of students voting?
Maybe you should keep off the bud.
Reply
Ashley Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
I honestly do not believe for one second that this could ever qualify as “doing something.” All this is going to do is cost us money and embarrassment. Do you really think that:
(1) The UN is going to do anything about this?
(2) That it even is in fact a Human Rights violation?
(3) That the governments of Canada and BC are going to take this seriously?
(4) That it’s not reasonable to expect people to have to work for a higher education. Why don’t YOU give up YOUR spot and go to Kwantlen or Cap where it’s much cheaper and you won’t have to work as much? Hmm? That’s still a higher education.
As far as I’m concerned, Canada and BC could satisfy Blake and Tim’s interpretation of the covenant article by having some really crappy community college that offers free tuition. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. You want to go to a top global university, you have to pay some money for it. If you aren’t willing to do that, you go somewhere else that’s not as highly accredited or respected.
Pedro Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Jeet, you misunderstand the outrage on this out of line manoeuvre by Frederick, Chu and Markle. This should have gone through council without a doubt. Combine this with Frederick’s recent missteps and you have a president that is unfit to lead a very large organization.
The worst part is that this was submitted to the UN HIGH COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS! I have no problem with lobbying governments that actually influence tuition and student oriented social programs. This however is a frivolous media play and an embarrassing one at that for UBC students and alumni. To equate “high tuition costs” in a nation with some of the lowest post secondary costs in the developed world with true gross violations of human rights is sickening. The complainants really need to reevaluate their methods of going about this.
Reply
Jeet Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
I understand that the AMS executives did not go through the proper channels to make this protest. The AMS has largely become an ineffectual organization with a massive bureaucracy that has had little or no impact on the three years of my UBC experience. For once, they have had the iniative and boldness to actually do something that address a growing need.
Once again, the naivete on the part of UBC students amazes me. I completely agree that this is a media gimmick- and it is useful because it is sparking debate and will bring the attention of the UBC Senate and the B.C. government. No one is actually implying that the UN get involved since as you rightly said, they have more important things to do. But the purpose was to bring this issue to everyone’s attention and they have clearly done so, otherwise you and I would not be discussing this online.
Reply
Pedro Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
To spend thousands of dollars of student funds on behalf of an old chum (Markle) who is no longer a student is irresponsible.
Someone is actually implying that the UN get involved. Frederick, Chu and Markle by submitting this to the UNHCHR have more than implied a desire for the UN to get involved. You don’t submit legal challenges on a whim with no intention of seeing action.
V Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
“Once again, the naivete on the part of UBC students amazes me.”
This is called their right of opinion. And if you are that smart to be able to see what everyone else is thinking, why are you complaining about how tough it is after all?
Not-UBC-Student Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
“substandard education at community colleges” Only shows me that UBC is full of COCKY, SELFISH, and IGNORANT people who call themselves students.
I’m proud to NOT BE IN UBC. At least I don’t have to put up with embarrassing shit like this. You guys just made fools of yourselves. Have you seen the tuitions in the US? its twice as much than it is here…Do YOU SEE THEM COMPLAINING???
Reply
Ashley Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
I wouldn’t say that community colleges provide “substandard education” per se, but UBC is still a more highly respected and renowned university than Kwantlen or Douglas or Cap or any other similar ones, for the programs that we offer.
Can’t say that your tone and word choice really works to help your cause though.
Reply
John (the first one) Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Not-UBC-Student, hopefully the rest of us have shown a bit more common sense than what we’re seeing from Jeet here, and hopefully that’s enough to convince you that we’re not all cocky, selfish, and ignorant.
I’m sorry and ashamed for what’s been done on my behalf. Truly.
Reply
V Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
No one forces international students to choose UBC. They take are responsible for their own choices. No one either forces them to stay in Canada if they aren’t happy with the way things go.
Reply
Misc Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
You shouldn’t assume that every student against this has their tuition paid for. I worked two jobs, I commuted 1.5 hours each way to live at home to save money, and took less courses if I needed more time to work to save money.
You do what you gotta do if you really want it, it’s not impossible.
Reply
M Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
I’m pretty sure people on both sides of this argument are taking a “holier-than-thou” attitude, yourself included.
Reply
Nat Nov 27
Jeet: although this only addresses one component of your message, I am offended by it and would like to clarify something. Specifically, I’d like to highlight that a community college education is by no means a ’substandard education’ and that there are many people out there who willingly take up a trade (vs. being ’stuck’ in a trade because they couldn’t afford a university education). I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I want to point out that a college diploma is absolutely NOT substandard to a university degree.
Reply
Jeet Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
I apologize. That was not my intention to degrade the education offered by other colleges and there is a need for trades. I mispoke and I apologize. My only point was for those who wish for a UBC education but cannot get it because of higher tuition costs.
Reply
Not-UBC-Student Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
“why don’t you give up your spot and get a diploma in toilet cleaning from XYZ Community College because you couldnt afford to pay UBC tuition before you talk about being embarassed?” Not your intention….
Reply
UBC Alumnus Nov 27
Blake – you had no business charging ahead like that without speaking to your Executive and Council. It was unprofessional and unethical.
Students on Council – please censure Blake. In fact, censure him on all topics until the end of his term.
Vancouver community members at large – please know this student’s opinion is not representative of the AMS or UBC.
Reply
UBC Alumnus Nov 27
ps-THE UN, really?! Don’t you think they have more important issues to deal with right now? Genocide in Darfur, Congo…? or more locally, poverty?
Reply
Elizabeth Maybenot Nov 27
Canada should look after Canadians. The UN is full of nations that stone girls to death so why should I care what they have to say .
Reply
Tony Nov 27
Judging by the English in some of these posts, I can understand why those students would need a second degree. Some nice examples include: “Hey yo”, numerous run-on and fully capitalized sentences.
People, tuition costs in this country are not prohibitive. “Concerned” wrote a post above with some numbers very similar to those at my university, U of T. If you are in need of additional funding, then reduce your course load and take on a job. That is what I do. Or, choose a program of study more likely to give you gainful employment after graduation.
Reply
Jeet Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Well, given the circumstances that most students are reducing course load and working crazy hours at menial jobs simply to fund a university education, I would like to not accept this as a status quo. And thats just for Canadian students.
International students pay about 6 times as much per credit as Canadians, have little to no scholarships available, no bursaries, no student lines of credit, work permits which allow you to work 10 hours a week which covers nothing. Perhaps this would be acceptable to you if you were in this situation but for most, its not.
Reply
Ashley Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Then those students can go to a university in their own country. We are not obligated to provide free or subsidized education for people who are not our citizens.
Reply
Jeet Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Firstly, international students come here, pay higher rates of tuition which subsidizes Canadian tuition and pretty much pays for all new buildings and equipment and books that UBC makes. Secondly, international students often do jobs which most Canadian students wouldnt want to be doing and further pay into the Canadian Pension plan which increases Canadian pensions, not theirs.
Thirdly, this protest is not just for international students but the hundreds of Canadian students who can’t obtain a UBC education because they can’t afford it or have to work crazy hours just to get an education that people like you take for granted. Just because you happened to be able to afford tuition and get what you call a ‘global university education’ doesn’t make it all nice and easy for everyone else.
Ashley Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
(1) That does not make them entitled to receive subsidies also. If they did, that would negate your reasoning for why they are valuable.
(2) What kind of jobs are those? I think you’re confusing international post-secondary students with immigrants. We’re not talking about janitors or railway workers here.
(3) You’re not entitled to a UBC education. If you want an inexpensive post-secondary education, go to Kwantlen or go to Cap or Langara.
Tony Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Jeet, that is such nonsense. Canadian tuition subsidies come primarily from government tax revenues and donations. International student tuition fees definitely do not “pretty much pays for all new buildings and equipment and books.” For example, Rotman School of Management. Why do you think it is called Rotman School?
You are grasping for straws in your post. Ashley is correct.
V Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
I beg your pardon Jeet.
UBC has the biggest program for Full scholarships for international students in Canada. Get your facts right.
Going to UBC, especially for international students is not a right. It is a privilege. Enough with bursaries, I think someone already mentioned that’s a responsibility of your own country’s government.
Lines of credit – as far as I know, banks are private institutions and it’s up to them to determine their clientele. Look at the risk profile of an international student: would you lend money yourself? If you think that works, go start a venture, raise some capital and help everyone with loans. Then everyone will me much better off, including yourself.
Last but not least, I should mention that looking at your profile pictures on facebook, one can deduct, you like traveling around Europe a lot, taking picutres with lambos, partying hard with some fine lager in hand, and cruising in limos around the city. This barely matches with the description of an overworked, barely breaking-even full time student. So much for the sincerity of your arguments.
Reply
Ashley Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Oh snap!
Jeet Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
Well, firstly on the personal comment, excuse me but I’m not going to apologize for three years of full time employment along with a full time course load in order to fund my education along with recreation. I work my ass off to enjoy my life and not everyone can do it. And this issue is above you and I- I dont see most of UBC students starving to death or suffering rape- yet you can still lend support to a cause.
Secondly, my point is once again, this is not an issue limited to international students but to the hundreds of Canadian students who remain in smaller towns or do not have the oppurtunity of going to UBC, given all the benefits which is their right as Canadians (student loans, bursaries, student line of credit etc.) because it is simply way too hard to cope with the studies and the work. Give me an example of a Canadian student who has worked his way through college or is doing so currently who disagrees with a tuition freeze? And why are tuition costs rising? Because of the rising cost of land around UBC which serves as residence for students, professors etc? Why is the cost landing? Because land developers essentially want to chare $2million for a condo the size of my room. And don’t give me the inflation argument- because inflation in the last two years has fallen but tuition costs have been hiked.
V Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
No one asks you to defend for your lifestyle, after all, you pay for it and you work to get the money for it. However, it makes no sense to say you struggle with money when you can afford all this.
And don’t go and blame the markets and the way they clear. In case you really want to go there and blame markets for people’s mishaps, go to North Korea, that’s probably one of the very few places in the World they’ll agree with you.
Tony Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
How is it possible to work full-time, attend full-time classes and have time for recreation all in the same week? I could see this as possible only if you ‘work’ at a desk where you can study. (such as a security guard, or concierge) Even then, I find this scenario highly unlikely, or your degree program is not very demanding.
Pedro Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Jeet, you’ve misunderstood a number of issues surrounding the Canadian post-secondary system, UBC and basic economics.
I’m going to give you the inflation argument, because it’s true. Inflation still exists. A decrease in inflation means the price of goods simply increases at a slower rate than previous years. An overall decrease in consumer goods prices is called deflation. Amazingly enough, we actually have experienced deflation in the last few months, but this is incredibly rare and cannot be considered a long-term trend. So there you have it.
Your point about land around UBC having an effect on tuition costs is laughable. Have you ever heard of the UBC Properties Trust? They manage development projects on UBC for the benefit of the university. That’s right, the land developers are putting million dollar condos on was sold by the university itself. Don’t get me wrong, I hate this practice, but it’s a money making venture, not one that drives up costs for students.
I am a Canadian student who paid my way through a UBC degree through hard work during the summer and during the school year. Though having a tuition freeze would be nice and all, is it realistic? Even the AMS has a policy saying that a 2% tuition increase is reasonable. Tim Chu contravened a council request for him to stop lobbying against tuition increases so long as they remained at or below the 2% mark.
Please, do your research again and post more.
Rob Reply:
November 29th, 2009 at 6:53 am
Pedro, please enlighten me if I have my facts wrong… Having luxury condos on campus is a good thing? With the shortage of student housing along with high prices and long wait times, it’s a good thing that we now have people living on campus who have nothing to do with the University? Expensive condos are going up and students could only ever dream of living there. Doesn’t the land value go up as you build newer and more luxurious condos, which would hike up the rental value? How is this in any way good for students? How is UBC profiting from all of this? It also affects stores in the village where they have to charge extra because property value is so high and this is again payed for by the students.
Is some of the money made by UBC selling land to development companies going towards improving student life? We are getting a new SUB but this is mostly or entirely payed for by students isn’t it? I’m an engineering student and we’ve had nothing but budget cuts but yet tuition keeps going up.
Is it wrong to assume that students are getting sold out for corporate profit? I just can’t help but feel like students are nothing but customers and the university is running a business. I mean go to the bookstore and find me something that is decently priced! You have instructors that force you to buy the newest edition of a book even though it’s exactly the same as the previous years, they just change a bunch of questions around.
I could go on but my point is that living on campus is very expensive for students when it should be the opposite, students should be able to benefit from low cost of living on campus where THEY are the most important people, not property investors and private companies.
V Reply:
November 30th, 2009 at 12:11 am
Rob,
The rental prices are so high up because of the demand and supply in the rental market, not because of the price of real estates. Even though there may be a correlation, by no means there is a causation in this issue. There are way too many students (and not only students) who are willing to pay high enough rent prices and enjoy living on campus. On the other side, the supply of rentals is pretty much fixed (if we don’t count new developments) so therefore, if prices go up, this is only because students are willing to pay more. If we include the real estate development it should actually increase supply and therefore drive the price down.
I guess what you’re trying to say is that luxury condos will be bought by wealthy individuals that have nothing to do with UBC and only rent them at very high price. The truth is though, that since there is quite a number of different suppliers of rentals in the vicinity, rent prices will be at market price and owners will only be able to charge as much as students are willing to pay.
I totally agree with you about the bookstore though – it is a completely different case.
Geoff Nov 27
STUPID STUPID STUPID..get a job and get a loan..that’s what most student’s have to do including myself..There is no sympathy for this kind of laziness.
Reply
Goldman Nov 27
Ban Ki-moon’s to-do list:
1)End Golbal Warming
2)Rebuild Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, DRC etc, etc
3)Help Tristan Markle with his debt
4)Global water/food shortages
Reply
UBC Student Nov 27
At least this BS will hopefully incite some students to actually vote. Maybe this time people will actually vote in an AMS election so that people like Blake/Chu who represent the view of about 2% of UBC students don’t get elected again.
In the mean time I don’t envy the next batch of AMS excecs who have to clean up this mess and start rebuilding bridges with the University, the government, the public, and students generally.
Nice blaze of glory Blake. Unilateral actions worked great for Bush too.
Reply
Peter Nov 28
Since many non-students are linking here from Bourque, let me put in a word to them:
I am a senior student at the University of Toronto. Please don’t think we’re all like this. In fact, it’s likely that most of us aren’t. Student unions tend to be full of loud, hyperpolitical agitators who do not reflect the general student population. I too have fallen into the trap of thinking that most students are similar. One of the central non-academic lessons I have taken away from my undergraduate years is that there actually does exist a so-called “silent majority” of students who want to get on with their lives without causing trouble, shouting slogans, vandalizing institutional property, or having “sit-ins” in hospital zones. The people who live in the fairy-tale world where their fight against tuition is a recreation of the civil rights movement are the types who go wage their highly personal vendettas using the nominal influence of the student union.
I say this all as a working class person whose father has a high school education. What is so amusing about this kind of thing is that university radicals tend to be middle or upper-middle class people who are totally myopic about the people they claim to be helping.
In any case, this complaint to the UN strikes me as like a pathetic cry to mummy. It is also pretty unsettling that they think that the internal financial decisions of a government should be subject to international review.
Reply
Disbelief Nov 28
I agree that the President and VP External’s actions are completely out of line and unacceptable. But what about the other council members who signed off on the contract for the legal counsel??
“$3000 has been spent so far for an initial retainer for Pivot, but that they have yet to receive a final invoice. The money was taken out of the AMS Council’s legal fund, which has a line amount of $25,000 according to the current budget. According to AMS Code, two signatories—either a vice-president executive, the director of finance, the director of administration or the secretary of the Student Administrative Commission—need to approve expenditures. [VP ACADEMIC JOHANNNES] Rebane and [VP FINANCE TOM] Dvorak signed off as signatories.
“It was a document that was signed by two other execs before me, and in haste of signing 90 documents in the first week of classes, I was going completely on the trust of fellow executives’ signatures and did not read into the details of the contract,” said Dvorak. ”I messed up. Did I put the payment through, did I initiate the transaction, no.” – from http://ubyssey.ca/news/?p=11212
We should be asking for much more than the resignation of Blake Frederick and Tim Chu. As VP Finance Dvorak absolutely must have more insight and common sense than to just sign away a contract worth thousands of dollars! That is HIS portfolio!!
We should be asking for the resignation of Blake Frederick, Tim Chu, Tom Dvorak and Johannes Rebane.
Reply
Peter Jay Nov 28
They’ve got a legitimate shot — Zimbabwe, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, China, Russia are all on the UN Human Rights Commission. They are very progressive countries and will stand up to evil Canada.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Commission_on_Human_Rights
Reply
Henry Darger Nov 28
Seriously?
Middle-class whinings no one else really gives a shit about.
Blake Frederick got you guys again real good.
Reply